CableCARD no longer required legislature

[IownFIVEechos]

Are their laws in place that prohibit cable providers from jacking up the price of the CableCard to an extreme. Lets say can they charge per tuner. Like $10 a tuner or something like that? If so that's probably next if this gets shot down?

[barnabas1969]

Side note, the rental fees as far as I can tell have not gone down with the introduction of the cable card. If anything mine went up as soon as they become even slightly desirable (that includes STB's). Cable companies are already monopolies IMO. They will do as they please as stated above by someone else. By stating Tivo in the verbiage at least someone can have a conversation that may be understood by another rep. Otherwise it will be like speaking a foreign language.

Rental fees, along with everything else the cable company charges for, have been going up for a long time. But consider the fact that renting two CableCARD's ($6/month) for a 5-room whole-home DVR system vs. renting their "whole home service" ($86/month in addition to what I was already paying) for the same 5-room house saved me $80/month compared to renting all the equipment (and services) that would have been required by my cable company to have whole-home DVR service... and theirs is crap compared to what I have. Want 6 tuners for your DVR? Yeah, they can do that... by renting you THREE separate DVR's.

Oh, and guess what... the recording schedule on those three DVR's isn't shared and there is no tuner conflict resolution between them! So, you have to make manual decisions as to which DVR should record which show to avoid conflicts! That's crap... and it costs an extra $80/month! Oh, and did I mention that you have to go to the TV that is connected to each of those DVR's in order to schedule the shows? Yeah, you can use their online software, but it's unreliable and can take up to 5 MINUTES to schedule a single show... while you watch the hourglass on your screen.

When I had their DVR, I tried their online interface. About 60% of the time, it failed to communicate with my DVR. The other 40% of the time, it took 5 minutes to complete a single operation. It was terrible. And it was their solution to the tuner conflict problem!

Never mind the fact that their DVR comes with a tiny 160GB hard drive. Yeah, you can connect your own external hard drive, but it has to be on their list of supported "DVR Expanders".

The argument isn't TiVo vs. whatever. The argument is "give me a choice". Don't change the law in a way that allows the cable company to force me to use their leased equipment which doesn't work as well and costs a lot more money.

[IownFIVEechos]

^^^ Remember I am on the same side as you, I am just being practical.

[barnabas1969]

Are their laws in place that prohibit cable providers from jacking up the price of the CableCard to an extreme. Lets say can they charge per tuner. Like $10 a tuner or something like that? If so that's probably next if this gets shot down?

Yes, the price they can charge you is regulated. I don't remember if it's 1/12th or 1/24th, but it's based on the cost of obtaining/repairing/maintaining/distributing the device. You can read more about it here:
http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/cablecards

I would even interpret some of that in a way that prevents them from charging "digital service" or "additional outlet" fees. Others may disagree.

[barnabas1969]

^^^ Remember I am on the same side as you, I am just being practical.

Understood. But, if you contact your Rep/Sen's, don't confuse the issue. It isn't about TiVo, or any other manufacturer. It's about your ability to choose the product that suits your needs. If the cable companies have their way, you won't have a choice... you will rent the equipment from them. This is no different from the old case where the Bell companies refused to allow anyone to connect devices to their network which were purchased from a 3rd party. They wouldn't allow you to buy your own phone from the lowest-cost provider. You were forced to rent it from them.

Do you remember the time when your phone came from the phone company? I do. You had very few choices. You could get a wall phone, a desk phone, a "princess" phone, or a "slim" wall phone (which was just the same "princess" phone that could be mounted on a wall)! They came in a variety of colors (tan, avocado green, light-blue, pink, etc), but they all had the same functionality. There was no storage for frequently-called numbers. There was no display. You couldn't change the ring tone (except for loudness)... it was an actual bell. There were 12 buttons (0-9, * and #) or a rotary dial. Those were your choices (and you paid an extra monthly fee for touch-tone access!). And you paid for it every month for eternity. It was durable. It never broke. And your rental price paid for the device multiple times while it was installed in your house. And... if you had them take it out... they put it in someone else's house, and that customer paid for it again!

In my lifetime, I've rented three cable boxes. All were after my cable company switched from analog to an analog/digital combination. The first one (from TWC - which later became BHN in my area) was in my house for 11 years. I paid for it every month. It was paid-for in 12-24 months. I don't remember if it's 12 or 24 months, but I'm sure that Richard1980 will come here and correct me. The point is that the box was paid-for long before it stopped working. It never needed a repair. On top of that, I had to rent the remote too... even though I didn't use it! I used a Sony programmable remote.

The only reason I stopped using the first box was because I left my first wife! Heck, I couldn't even tell you how much longer she rented that box! So, after I left my first wife, I rented another box. This time, it was from Comcast. I lived there for a year. That was 40 miles south of where I lived before and after. When I moved back to the area where my kids live (because I wanted to be near them), I got TWC/BHN again. I rented their box. I kept that box for another 6 years until I learned about the multi-tuner CableCARD devices from Ceton (and subsequently Silicondust).

I never needed a repair on those boxes. I paid 100% of the price for all three of them, and in 2 out of 3 cases, I paid for them multiple times. I didn't get to keep them or re-sell them. The cable company got 100% profit for every dollar I paid after the first 12/24 months. And, after I dumped the cable box... they rented them to someone else and made even more money!

If you think that consumer choice is a good idea, then contact your Senators/Representative. Let your voice be heard!

[hooraah]

for the same 5-room house saved me $80/month compared to renting all the equipment

This can be a powerful argument with politicians. Think about how many political ads you've seen that say "With my opponents plan, your prescription drug coverage with increase by $50 a month!" Cut to a white haired lady saying "I can't afford that!"

If you can convey the message that monthly costs will increase as a result of this legislation, you will have a strong message. Tie it to competition or innovation, or tie it to a directly competing product. For example, Grandma Eldridge can rent a cable card for $3/month that she can put in her bedroom TV. But with this new legislation she will need a cable box for $20/month! Dont get too crazy with the comparisons though, the whole 'my Bentley will cost more' argument doesn't usually go over well.

[barnabas1969]

People like to argue about the price of a Windows Media Center setup vs. TiVo or the generic box from the cable company. I agree that it's difficult to justify for 1 or 2 rooms, but when you are looking for 3-6 rooms, Media Center wins without question. I would have gone with a TiVo setup in 2011, if the Roamio/Mini had existed then. In fact, if the current pricing of Roamio had existed in late 2012, I would probably have gone with it instead of Media Center.

Neither of the PC's that I've built over the last 3+ years were "budget" PC's, and I've still saved money compared to what Brighthouse would have charged... and I got more functionality too. Many people have built Media Center PC's for much less than I've spent.

I believe that CableCARD DVR's are on the edge of actually becoming a popular option. When that happens, prices will come down. If this legislation removes the requirement for cable companies to support CableCARD, then that price reduction won't happen.

I remember, back in 2003, when the promise of CableCARD meant that I wouldn't need a Set Top Box under my TV. I thought that was a great idea because I hated having an extra box to watch TV, even without a consideration for a DVR. It's been a disappointing journey over the last 10+ years, but we are finally at a point where manufacturers are starting to take notice. Most of the recent CableCARD options have not included a DVR, and even those that have a DVR don't have a whole-home focus, but I believe that we are on the edge of innovation... finally... because support for CableCARD has become less of a burden for the average consumer, and because more options have been presented to the market place. In 2013, TiVo finally released a whole-home product that I, personally, would consider as an option given the copy-protection applied by my cable provider. Several other manufacturers released cable boxes that couldn't record, but gave the consumer a choice to purchase them instead of a perpetual rental fee.

If CableCARD is killed, no further innovation will occur. We all know that Media Center will eventually meet its demise. If this legislation is passed with a "free pass" that allows the cable providers to ignore support for CableCARD, then that demise will come much sooner, and we will not have options for the future besides renting crappy hardware from our cable provider at high cost.

Vote with your mouth/pen/keyboard. Let your representative in Washington DC know what you want!

[Yeveisna]

Last year, Verizon Fios' CableCARDs went from 3.99 to 4.99 in my state. I expect it to go up to 5.99 sometimes this year and beyond afterwards. The idea to rent 2 cards for 10 dollars a month and pair them to a cable ready device with 3 tuners each by 2 would not really be worth it, but if it were a device with 6 tuners by 2 it would seem worth it.

[barnabas1969]

Last year, Verizon Fios' CableCARDs went from 3.99 to 4.99 in my state. I expect it to go up to 5.99 sometimes this year and beyond afterwards. The idea to rent 2 cards for 10 dollars a month and pair them to a cable ready device with 3 tuners each by 2 would not really be worth it, but if it were a device with 6 tuners by 2 it would seem worth it.

How much does it cost to rent an STB vs a CableCARD? For me, it's $8/month for a cable box, or $9.98/month for a DVR. Plus, if you have the DVR, they charge you a monthly DVR "service" fee of an additional $9.98. Want whole-home? Oh... that's an extra $20/month. Cable cards are $2.99/month and they support up to 6 tuners each. With Media Center plus extenders, you can have a whole home system for $2.99/month. I chose to have 6 tuners, and I like the 3-tuner HD HomeRun PRIME tuners, so I rent two CableCARD's. In effect, I pay $5.98/month for a whole home system that serves 5 TV's. A 6-tuner system from the cable company would cost me an extra $80/month, and it wouldn't work as well. It's a no-brainer.

[Yeveisna]

Last year, Verizon Fios' CableCARDs went from 3.99 to 4.99 in my state. I expect it to go up to 5.99 sometimes this year and beyond afterwards. The idea to rent 2 cards for 10 dollars a month and pair them to a cable ready device with 3 tuners each by 2 would not really be worth it, but if it were a device with 6 tuners by 2 it would seem worth it.

How much does it cost to rent an STB vs a CableCARD? For me, it's $8/month for a cable box, or $9.98/month for a DVR. Plus, if you have the DVR, they charge you a monthly DVR "service" fee of an additional $9.98. Want whole-home? Oh... that's an extra $20/month. Cable cards are $2.99/month and they support up to 6 tuners each. With Media Center plus extenders, you can have a whole home system for $2.99/month. I chose to have 6 tuners, and I like the 3-tuner HD HomeRun PRIME tuners, so I rent two CableCARD's. In effect, I pay $5.98/month for a whole home system that serves 5 TV's. A 6-tuner system from the cable company would cost me an extra $80/month, and it wouldn't work as well. It's a no-brainer.

7.99 for a standard definition set top box; 16.99 for high definition digital video recorder and an optional 2.99 for Multi Hub to make the Multi Room DVR function (or a full 20 for a HD DVR box to have the capability built in) 11.99 for a set top box that capable of both SD and HD channels. CableCARD is 4.99 /$5.00 a month $59.88 or $60.00 a year.

[barnabas1969]

Last year, Verizon Fios' CableCARDs went from 3.99 to 4.99 in my state. I expect it to go up to 5.99 sometimes this year and beyond afterwards. The idea to rent 2 cards for 10 dollars a month and pair them to a cable ready device with 3 tuners each by 2 would not really be worth it, but if it were a device with 6 tuners by 2 it would seem worth it.

How much does it cost to rent an STB vs a CableCARD? For me, it's $8/month for a cable box, or $9.98/month for a DVR. Plus, if you have the DVR, they charge you a monthly DVR "service" fee of an additional $9.98. Want whole-home? Oh... that's an extra $20/month. Cable cards are $2.99/month and they support up to 6 tuners each. With Media Center plus extenders, you can have a whole home system for $2.99/month. I chose to have 6 tuners, and I like the 3-tuner HD HomeRun PRIME tuners, so I rent two CableCARD's. In effect, I pay $5.98/month for a whole home system that serves 5 TV's. A 6-tuner system from the cable company would cost me an extra $80/month, and it wouldn't work as well. It's a no-brainer.

7.99 for a standard definition set top box; 16.99 for high definition digital video recorder and an optional 2.99 for Multi Hub to make the Multi Room DVR function (or a full 20 for a HD DVR box to have the capability built in) 11.99 for a set top box that capable of both SD and HD channels. CableCARD is 4.99 /$5.00 a month $59.88 or $60.00 a year.

OK, so even if you only have one TV, the cable card saves you $11.99 per month. What's your complaint?

[Yeveisna]

My point is that the rental price of a card is likely to go past 4.99 point. If I recall correctly the price range is suppose to be between $2 to $4 a month.

[richard1980]

As I understand it, CableCARD existed before the integration ban existed.

See the FCC's first Report and Order.

I don't remember if it's 12 or 24 months, but I'm sure that Richard1980 will come here and correct me.

12 months. You're welcome

but if it were a device with 6 tuners by 2 it would seem worth it.

So get an infiniTV6.

How much does it cost to rent an STB vs a CableCARD?

According to FCC rules, the lease fee for the CableCARD must be included as part of the lease fee for the STB...unless of course you're talking about a box that doesn't have a CableCARD.

If I recall correctly the price range is suppose to be between $2 to $4 a month.

It's 1/12th of the cost of the card (which includes all costs associated with the card, not just the purchase price). So the $2-4 range is only correct for a total cost of $24-48.

[Crash2009]

If I recall correctly the price range is suppose to be between $2 to $4 a month.

Now you got me going. Last time I checked, they were paying me 5 bucks/month to use CableCards in customer supplied equipment.

[richard1980]

Now you got me going. Last time I checked, they were paying me 5 bucks/month to use CableCards in customer supplied equipment.

While Comcast may be giving you a $5 per month credit for customer-owned equipment (I'm guessing $2.50 x 2), they're also charging you $20 or $30 per month for STBs. So in reality, you're paying far more for your CableCARDs than you should.

[Crash2009]

While Comcast may be giving you a $5 per month credit for customer-owned equipment (I'm guessing $2.50 x 2), they're also charging you $20 or $30 per month for STBs. So in reality, you're paying far more for your CableCARDs than you should.

Aw Richard, I wish ya hadn't told me that. Are you telling me that they are charging me 20 or 30 for a box that I don't even have? Do I have to go down there again and show them where it says that in the FCC paperwork? If that is true, they owe me somewhere between 240 and 360. I havn't had a STB for about a year now.

BTW, good guess on the 2.50 X 2

[richard1980]

A few years ago, FCC passed some new CableCARD rules. One of those rules requires the cable companies to issue refunds to people with packages that bundle the box with the service when the customer uses their own box (TiVo, HTPC, etc.) instead of the cable company's box. Unfortunately, the rule for how much the cable company has to refund is not consistent with the rule for how much they are allowed to charge. While they can charge 1/12th of the cost of a box, they only have to refund 1/60th of the cost of the box. Which means that ultimately, it's perfectly legal for a cable company to make you pay a fee for a box that you don't have, though that fee is slightly less than it would be if you actually had the box.

[slowbiscuit]

Now you got me going. Last time I checked, they were paying me 5 bucks/month to use CableCards in customer supplied equipment.

While Comcast may be giving you a $5 per month credit for customer-owned equipment (I'm guessing $2.50 x 2), they're also charging you $20 or $30 per month for STBs. So in reality, you're paying far more for your CableCARDs than you should.

The actual net monthly rate for each additional Cablecard (after the included first one) is supposed to be $7.50 a month ($10 outlet - $2.50 credit). I have two cards w/no STBs and pay $5/month net for both of them after the bogus additional outlet fee and 2x$2.50 credits.

But as we've discussed many times here and elsewhere, Comcast card pricing is all over the map and entirely depends on local policy and the rep that sets you up. Sounds like Crash is getting the best YMMV deal, two cards for free and two credits. This is not uncommon.

[barnabas1969]

As I understand it, CableCARD existed before the integration ban existed.

See the FCC's first Report and Order.

Thanks. That's good info. So it goes all the way back to 1998, before CableCARD's even existed. For those of you who don't want to read the whole thing:

MVPDs may offer devices that have security and non-security functions integrated until January 1, 2005. As of that date, no MVPD shall provide new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both conditional access functions and other functions in a single integrated device. In the year 2000, once separate security modules are available, we will assess the state of the market to determine whether that time frame is appropriate and we will review the mechanics of the phase out of boxes that have combined security and non-security functions.

[IownFIVEechos]

This thread is more about the future vs the politics.

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 814#p71814

The future is coming and cablecards look to be going bye bye.