WMC to TiVo

[shortcut3d]

So my endeavor into HTPC started with the desire to get a better experience than the cable company box. The criteria I set in 2011 was more simultaneous recordings, more storage, EPG, whole home DVR and compact form factor.

It started with two 2011Mac mini BTO 2.7GHz i7 Dual Core, 8GB, 240GB SSD, 750GB HDD. Then bootcamp Windows 7 x64. Tuner duties were served by SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime 3CC at each system. This had early issues with tuner availability after standby. It was also mildly affected by the 29/59 frame rate bug.

Enter two Xbox 360 4GB as extenders and remove one HTPC. At this point things are getting fairly stable. MediaBrowser was added for movies and as well as our music and photo library to WMC. I also upgraded to a HDHRP-6CC which fit nicely in the entertainment center.

There were two issues at this point, which I could have been content with: (1) generally Xbox 360 and (2) storage.

Xbox 360. Unlike most complaints, my issues were largely in the hardware than file support. The Xbox 360 power supplies were poor, the fans eventually became noisy, they ran hot and the Ir was limited.

Storage. So I crammed a 2TB Enterprise drive into the Mac mini for a couple months. Eventually, I decided to implement iSCSI using a Synology DS1813+ NAS with 8 4TB Seagate NAS drives. This also came with a full network overhaul with Ubiquiti EdgeRouter POE, ToughSwitch(s), and UniFi UAP-AC. I achieved 120MB/s+ single host read/writes for iSCSI.

Enter Ceton Corporation. I joined the November 2012 beta excited to get an energy efficient, small, good file support, quiet extender. Things went horribly wrong. However, faith in this company was high so I ended up replacing both Xbox 360 extenders with Echo(s). Another product release with the InfiniTV6 ETH promised an even cleaner streamlined setup compared to my HDHRP-6CC. I went all in with Ceton. I saw the potential. In the end, it all failed.

Fast forward to this week and I've switched out my setup for a TiVo Roamio Plus and Mini. From a hardware perspective, this was cheaper than the two Echo(s) and InfiniTV6 ETH. Yes, there is a service component. What I noticed immediate is it just worked. The TiVo Roamio Plus was also easily upgraded to 3TB by removing 12 torx screws. Xfinity OnDemand and Netflix are both available. If I choose, I could setup pyTivo on my Synology DS1813+ to push/pull content from the Roamio, so the access and file playback is similar to the WMC setup. The TiVo iOS app is also as nice if not better than Ceton My Media Center. I can also stream with the app. Both the Roamio and mini have MoCA so I could potentially offload all HTPC traffic from my LAN. The Roamio and Mini UI speed is like working directly on the HTPC. Also, the picture quality is superior to the Echo. Protected content works, whereas getting no audio or video with the Echo.

TiVo Roamio Cons. You have to setup pyTiVo for good access. I wish Synology supported TiVo's proprietary home sharing format or TiVo supported DLNA. The whole TiVo recommendations seems like a gimmick.

[jeonunh]

Just curious. Does the Tivo have any ability to play video files? MKV, AVI, etc? I'm thinking seriously about switching to the Tivo Roamio too, and I just need to think through what I can and can't expect to work without additional devices.

[werds]

Just curious. Does the Tivo have any ability to play video files? MKV, AVI, etc? I'm thinking seriously about switching to the Tivo Roamio too, and I just need to think through what I can and can't expect to work without additional devices.

I am in the curious about it stage as well. Currently too invested in my WMC + ceton + xbox 360 extender ecosystem. But I am definitely taking a hard look at this Tivo Roamio ecosystem as a possibility going forward if it has the right capabilities, the right price point, and there are no other WMC style alternatives in the coming years (ie SD or Ceton or other company putting together their own DVR software solution for protected content recorded TV which makes up the bulk of what my household consumes)


As to your question I was looking for similar clarification about it as according to this page http://pytivo.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/PyTivo installing PyTivo should provide that - although it sounds as if there would have to be on the fly transcoding going on?

I am also curious about how the tuner allocation works and all. Is it similar to WMC and extenders or what the major differences between the two are (as at first blush it sounds less flexible)

[staknhalo]

With the lifetime subscription thing - it only covers the lifetime of that one model you buy it for, correct? Like if you wanted to buy a newer model Tivo 5 years from now - would you have to pay the lifetime sub for that new model, or does your previous lifetime sub carry over? I always assumed you would have to pay again, which has turned me off.

[Dean L. Surkin]

Fast forward to this week and I've switched out my setup for a TiVo Roamio Plus and Mini.

How well does live TV work on the Mini? I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels. I'd consider putting the Roamio in the den and the Mini in our bedroom (that way I wouldn't have hard disk noise in the bedroom), so the experience of the Mini with recorded and live TV would be important.

[Dean L. Surkin]

With the lifetime subscription thing - it only covers the lifetime of that one model you buy it for, correct? Like if you wanted to buy a newer model Tivo 5 years from now - would you have to pay the lifetime sub for that new model, or does your previous lifetime sub carry over? I always assumed you would have to pay again, which has turned me off.

My understanding is that TiVo gives you a small discount when you transfer an account (something like $100 off a new lifetime subscription).

[blueiedgod]

I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels.

It will be cheaper to get a new wife than switching to TiVO.

[slowbiscuit]

Just curious. Does the Tivo have any ability to play video files? MKV, AVI, etc? I'm thinking seriously about switching to the Tivo Roamio too, and I just need to think through what I can and can't expect to work without additional devices.

Yes, pretty much anything you want because whatever isn't specifically supported is transcoded by pyTivo (or streambaby) w/ffmpeg. I've had no issues with 720p and 1080p BR rips with AC3 audio, for example, but these aren't full bitrate.

[slowbiscuit]

I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels.

It will be cheaper to get a new wife than switching to TiVO.

If you think $1300 for a Tivo Plus w/2 Minis is more than a wedding and all that goes with it, sure. But most people, unlike you, don't instinctively threadcrap on Tivo at the mere mention of it.

[Shackleford]

For someone just getting into dropping cable co hardware the Tivo set up is very close to what it would cost for a wmc set up. If you dont already have PC to use. I'd definitely consider if I hadn't already invested into wmc.

[shortcut3d]

Fast forward to this week and I've switched out my setup for a TiVo Roamio Plus and Mini.

How well does live TV work on the Mini? I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels. I'd consider putting the Roamio in the den and the Mini in our bedroom (that way I wouldn't have hard disk noise in the bedroom), so the experience of the Mini with recorded and live TV would be important.

LiveTV is immediately available once the Mini is awake. The Mini like all TiVos is always on and connected. It does timeout from TiVo Central by design to release the dynamically allocated tuner. PQ is the same as on the Roamio, if not the colors are slightly richer. However, I'm comparing between a Sony 60R55 and Sony 50R55 so there may be slight differences in color reproduction. The picture settings were matched between the two panels.

Tuner allocation is dynamic. One thing to note is that a tuner can not be stopped like on WMC. All six tuners are always buffering. The Mini is dynamically allocated any tuner not currently recording or on Live TV.

[werds]

Fast forward to this week and I've switched out my setup for a TiVo Roamio Plus and Mini.

How well does live TV work on the Mini? I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels. I'd consider putting the Roamio in the den and the Mini in our bedroom (that way I wouldn't have hard disk noise in the bedroom), so the experience of the Mini with recorded and live TV would be important.

LiveTV is immediately available once the Mini is awake. The Mini like all TiVos is always on and connected. It does timeout from TiVo Central by design to release the dynamically allocated tuner. PQ is the same as on the Roamio, if not the colors are slightly richer. However, I'm comparing between a Sony 60R55 and Sony 50R55 so there may be slight differences in color reproduction. The picture settings were matched between the two panels.

Tuner allocation is dynamic. One thing to note is that a tuner can not be stopped like on WMC. All six tuners are always buffering. The Mini is dynamically allocated any tuner not currently recording or on Live TV.

The always buffering part is cool, what is the buffer size in minutes? Does it keep the buffer and hence a recorded file if you were to hit "record" when tuning in midway through a show?

Another question is that if all 6 tuners are being used to record or tune in a channel on the main tivo, are those 6 channels available on the mini's (a la the way extenders work ) or would the mini's only be able to pull up pre-recorded content and unable to watch those channels live?

Do recordings have the flexibility to be set for recording beyond their set end time? If so does this cause the tuners to be locked and unable to record the next show on that same channel or does it overlap and start the next show concurrently? (one of the reasons I have 12 tuners in my WMC setup is to allow extra time at end of shows while the extra tuners then kick in to start recording the next show on the channel)

[Sammy2]

It is sort of cool but that puts some wear on the HDD for sure.

So both the Roamio and the Mini will playback mkv's but just at a lower bit rate and not with HD Audio or dts support? Where do you get this pyTiVo software for transcoding?

[shortcut3d]

It is sort of cool but that puts some wear on the HDD for sure.

So both the Roamio and the Mini will playback mkv's but just at a lower bit rate and not with HD Audio or dts support? Where do you get this pyTiVo software for transcoding?

The Roamio shipped with a WD Green EUR drive for video recording. I replaced it with a spare 3TB Seagate NAS drive. Both drives are designed for always on operation. There is a debate on AVS (but accepted on TiVo forums) that constant on is better than cycles for drive longevity.

pyTiVo is available on sourceforge. It supposedly can work on Synology NAS too. I'm giving a try at setting up my WMC Intel NUC as a dedicated XBMC player first. So far XBMC has been bleh. Driver issues, configuration, skins, etc. I'm sure it has the potential to be impressive, but its growing tiresome. Is there a paid media center alternative that looks like the Xbox 360 Metro interface, or Apple TV3 that I can install? The one major requirement is a good official iOS remote.

I really do not want to mess with the NAS because there is way too much valuable data. Increasing my SHR-2 volume by a single 4TB drive is a two day rebuild process.

If I can't re-purpose WMC to a different media center, then I settle for putting pyTiVo on the HTPC and runing my Ubiquiti UniFi controller on it as well.

[shortcut3d]

How well does live TV work on the Mini? I'm using an HTPC with two Echos, and the WAF has declined to alarming levels. I'd consider putting the Roamio in the den and the Mini in our bedroom (that way I wouldn't have hard disk noise in the bedroom), so the experience of the Mini with recorded and live TV would be important.

LiveTV is immediately available once the Mini is awake. The Mini like all TiVos is always on and connected. It does timeout from TiVo Central by design to release the dynamically allocated tuner. PQ is the same as on the Roamio, if not the colors are slightly richer. However, I'm comparing between a Sony 60R55 and Sony 50R55 so there may be slight differences in color reproduction. The picture settings were matched between the two panels.

Tuner allocation is dynamic. One thing to note is that a tuner can not be stopped like on WMC. All six tuners are always buffering. The Mini is dynamically allocated any tuner not currently recording or on Live TV.

The always buffering part is cool, what is the buffer size in minutes? Does it keep the buffer and hence a recorded file if you were to hit "record" when tuning in midway through a show?

Another question is that if all 6 tuners are being used to record or tune in a channel on the main tivo, are those 6 channels available on the mini's (a la the way extenders work ) or would the mini's only be able to pull up pre-recorded content and unable to watch those channels live?

Do recordings have the flexibility to be set for recording beyond their set end time? If so does this cause the tuners to be locked and unable to record the next show on that same channel or does it overlap and start the next show concurrently? (one of the reasons I have 12 tuners in my WMC setup is to allow extra time at end of shows while the extra tuners then kick in to start recording the next show on the channel)

The buffer is 30 minutes per tuner and it will pickup a recording at the beginning of a show if its within the buffer. The Mini is assigned a single tuner that is not shared with the host like WMC extenders. However, you could start a recording and view the in progress tuner on both systems. TiVo has something called overlap protection to handle shows that overlap when all tuners are in use. This prevents a total conflict. Similar to WMC start time 5 minutes when possible. The show that is cut in length is the lower priority recording.

[shortcut3d]

Quick update. Xfinity On Demand required a reboot today to get access back. Core function remains stable.

I also finished repurposing the WMC system as XBMC using Xperience1080. The picture quality is absolutely stunning. The correct frame rate really improves depth of the picture. I don't think the Echo was reaching the full frame rate even when playback was not jerky.

PyTivo may be next so I can pull some recordings to my NAS. Then they can be played through XBMC if so desired.

[jeonunh]

Maybe this is a stupid question. Is the quality of the Xfinity On Demand through the Tivo the same as with the cable box, or is it more dependent on the internet connection like the Xfinity App would be on an iPad? I always figured there was some special two-way communication going on with dedicated bandwidth when running through the cable box. I have one cable box in my house just to retain good quality on-demand, and to have a TV that works when WMC decides to have one of its "moments" and not work properly.

[barnabas1969]

The Mini is assigned a single tuner that is not shared with the host like WMC extenders. However, you could start a recording and view the in progress tuner on both systems.

So, if you have five recordings running, and a sixth one starts, what happens (when one of the tuners is allocated to the mini)? Can you test it and report back?

It sounds, from what you've said so far, that a tuner is allocated to the Mini at all times, unless it "times out from TiVo Central". Can you explain exactly what that means (the timeout thing)? Does that mean that a tuner is in use by each Mini, even when nobody is watching TV on the mini?

[shortcut3d]

Maybe this is a stupid question. Is the quality of the Xfinity On Demand through the Tivo the same as with the cable box, or is it more dependent on the internet connection like the Xfinity App would be on an iPad? I always figured there was some special two-way communication going on with dedicated bandwidth when running through the cable box. I have one cable box in my house just to retain good quality on-demand, and to have a TV that works when WMC decides to have one of its "moments" and not work properly.

Xfinity OnDemand is delivered through the cable not over the internet. The app selects through the internet and instructs the box to tune to the OnDemand channel. I think you can catch the TiVo still tuned to the OnDemand channel if you quit out to the guide (I've only witnessed it once). Quality is the same as the Cable Co box. I find that the On Demand TV shows have a limited color range compared to broadcast.

[shortcut3d]

The Mini is assigned a single tuner that is not shared with the host like WMC extenders. However, you could start a recording and view the in progress tuner on both systems.

So, if you have five recordings running, and a sixth one starts, what happens (when one of the tuners is allocated to the mini)? Can you test it and report back?

It sounds, from what you've said so far, that a tuner is allocated to the Mini at all times, unless it "times out from TiVo Central". Can you explain exactly what that means (the timeout thing)? Does that mean that a tuner is in use by each Mini, even when nobody is watching TV on the mini?

The Mini can sense the TV and will release the tuner. Also going to TiVo Central releases the tuner. When you power the TV back on, you're prompted to go to TiVo central. The tuner allocation is dynamic, and the tuner continues to buffer on or off the mini. If the tuner is needed for a recording, the Mini will get a prompt for a conflict. If you do nothing, the tuner is released for the recording. The Mini stays connected and you can then go to the recordings.