Echo & Android Update

[Crash2009]

Adam, I just wanted to say that I agree with your side of this debate. The funny part about this debate is that now that part of the other side has revealed they are out of arguments, their arguments are now opinions.

Go Adam!

[hmmurdock]

Wait a minute--if *I* have an opinion, it's trolling, but if you have an opinion, it's not?

How does that work?

You are trying to force your opinion on others. No one else is doing the same to you.

Is anyone here trying to tell you that you should be angry/upset/peeved/emotionally invested or otherwise feel a way differently than you do? No. They aren't. You however are acting like you (and to a lesser degree richard) as if you get the last word on how people should respond. That isn't your decision to make. It is an opinion just like everyone else's, but it certainly isn't right, wrong or otherwise. It is just an opinion, no more no less. Everyone else acknowledges your right to your opinion. You refuse to acknowledge anyone else's right to have their opinion and in doing so twist that into your opinion being "right." It isn't right, it is valid. Learn the difference.

What it boils down to is things are black and white when you say they're black and white. They're gray when you say they're gray. You exaggerate and use hyperbole when it's convenient for you. You twist the words of others, misquote them and constantly try to frame the discussion in a fashion where your opinion is the only valid one. In short, you're trolling.

You previously acknowledged that people were justified in their displeasure. Your beef seems to be with the level of their displeasure. What gives you the right to be the sole decision maker on how upset someone can get over a given subject? Because you've decided that you weren't emotionally invested in a particular thing, suddenly that means no one else can either?

You aren't adding anything meaningful to the discussion, you're only provoking people that are already agitated. You are a troll, a hypocrite, and a trouble maker.

[mariob33]

What I wonder is would you be as forgiving if this was MS, Panasonic, Apple, Verizon or the like? Would you be so quick at defending of Apple and its antenna gate as you are with defense of echo consumers. IMO the blind defense of Ceton is the only thing thats abnormal here.

It's funny how you keep twisting things around and talking about things that aren't in play.

Any defense of Ceton that I offer up is far from "blind". As I have repeatedly said, it comes from Ceton's having earned me giving them the benefit of the doubt.

You, on the other hand, seem to give no quarter. There's no room in your world for mistakes. Either everything Ceton does goes perfectly, or else they're evil and are specifically trying to dupe you.

Did you think that there would be no blowback or sorry there should be none as you put it because they provided a product which the community didn't complain and accepted.

It's funny how you keep twisting things around and talking about things that aren't in play.

We're you involved in the Beta? Have you asked Ceton what happened to the hundreds of bugs reported by the community then? Sorry, it's your blind defense that falls apart IMO. Then again, if privately you have a @cetoncorp email, pulse or mailbox stop account, I apologize in advance.

Ah, the final desperate ploy: "you must work for them".

I get it -"its funny"! What's funny is your selective comprehension. There were at least 4 other questions there and all you could respond to was the one meant to be humorous.

Have you asked those who are taking Ceton to task how much support they have given to ceton as a company in the past? Perhaps the backlash isn't just related to this singular echo debacle. Maybe its the repeat occurrences that have people frustrated. I for one can point to at least 5 components in my setup today that show my support to ceton. Can you say the same? Please consider these questions rhetorical

[Haba]

Wait a minute--if *I* have an opinion, it's trolling, but if you have an opinion, it's not?

How does that work?

You are trying to force your opinion on others. No one else is doing the same to you.

Is anyone here trying to tell you that you should be angry/upset/peeved/emotionally invested or otherwise feel a way differently than you do? No. They aren't. You however are acting like you (and to a lesser degree richard) as if you get the last word on how people should respond. That isn't your decision to make. It is an opinion just like everyone else's, but it certainly isn't right, wrong or otherwise. It is just an opinion, no more no less. Everyone else acknowledges your right to your opinion. You refuse to acknowledge anyone else's right to have their opinion and in doing so twist that into your opinion being "right." It isn't right, it is valid. Learn the difference.

What it boils down to is things are black and white when you say they're black and white. They're gray when you say they're gray. You exaggerate and use hyperbole when it's convenient for you. You twist the words of others, misquote them and constantly try to frame the discussion in a fashion where your opinion is the only valid one. In short, you're trolling.

You previously acknowledged that people were justified in their displeasure. Your beef seems to be with the level of their displeasure. What gives you the right to be the sole decision maker on how upset someone can get over a given subject? Because you've decided that you weren't emotionally invested in a particular thing, suddenly that means no one else can either?

You aren't adding anything meaningful to the discussion, you're only provoking people that are already agitated. You are a troll, a hypocrite, and a trouble maker.

+1000

[STC]

Seeing as we're going around in circles:

[Crash2009]

Nice. Did you draw that with paint?

[mariob33]

Seeing as we're going around in circles:

Now a that's funny... Wife just said are you seriously arguing on the internet..

[STC]

Nice. Did you draw that with paint?

By Crikey no. I'm not the artist
I can't draw for toffee.
It's a popular sketch.

http://xkcd.com

[kingwr]

$124.99 on Newegg "while supplies last." I think this answers the "We are going to keep selling and supporting Echo" question.

[hmmurdock]

Seeing as we're going around in circles:

Title - "Duty Calls"
Caption - "What do you want me to do? LEAVE? They'll keep being wrong!" [sic]

Great reference, STC. Nicely done. (and yes, I know it was directed at me as much as anyone else)

[nebulink]

No the HW issue only pertains to the upgrade scenario from WMC to Android base. Like the post said it does not effect current Echo firmware and would not have any impact at all on future firmware updates in the current WMC Extender framework.

Why doesn't Ceton start shipping out preinstalled android versions on the Echo? Also, for the people that want to risk bricking their echo during an upgrade attempt let them. Mine has been sitting here pretty much untouched since the original beta in hopes for a stable solution.

There is so much bickering going on I can't even get a response to the above. Seems like to me Ceton is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[hmmurdock]

There is so much bickering going on I can't even get a response to the above. Seems like to me Ceton is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I would venture a guess that they won't do that for the same reason that I think they didn't release any firmware updates while they were working on Android previously...

It would require them to work on multiple firmware branches simultaneously, and I don't think they want to (or don't have the resources to) do that.

If I'm to believe what Ceton has said previously, I suspect we should have a new firmware revision for WMX that integrates any improvements that were added during the Android development. How long that will take is anybody's guess.

[lucidrenegade]

Wait a minute--if *I* have an opinion, it's trolling, but if you have an opinion, it's not?

How does that work?

You aren't adding anything meaningful to the discussion, you're only provoking people that are already agitated. You are a troll, a hypocrite, and a trouble maker.

Give up on it, hmmurdock. He's from AVSForum and dslreports forums as well. It's in his nature apparently.

[richard1980]

There are 12 pages of posts in this thread

In all fairness, Adam wrote 6 pages by himself. (no offense Adam)

Learn the difference.

Is that a demand? Because clearly I don't know what constitutes a demand.

To take a page out of warpster's book:

de·mand
diˈmand/
noun

1. an insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right.

verb

1. ask authoritatively or brusquely.

So I stand by my statement: For the most part, I don't see people on here demanding anything.

I never said most people were demanding. In fact, I said "small group of people".

Give it up, you won't change mine or most of the opinions here.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm stating the facts. Ceton doesn't owe anybody here anything. They don't owe me an InfiniTV4 that performs to my liking, they don't owe you an Echo that performs to your liking, and they sure as hell don't owe anybody a refund that failed to request a refund during the return period. We all got what we paid for, we all kept our products, and now we all have to deal with it.

[adam1991]

Wait a minute--if *I* have an opinion, it's trolling, but if you have an opinion, it's not?

How does that work?

You are trying to force your opinion on others. No one else is doing the same to you.

bzzzzzt. Thanks for playing.

[hmmurdock]

I never said most people were demanding. In fact, I said "small group of people".

That's funny. Because I'm pretty sure I said "For the most part, I don't see people on here demanding anything."

Which you then misquoted (removing the "for the most part") and replied with a bunch of people not demanding things.

I guess I just assumed that you were posting those as counter points to my point, so it appeared that you didn't understand what "demand" means. It all makes sense now that you agree with me that almost no one is demanding anything from Ceton (be sure to include the "almost" when you quote me next time) and those were just reinforcing that point.

I'm glad to know we're in agreement that almost no one is demanding anything from Ceton, and that we both agree that the majority of quotes you posted in response to my previous post were, in fact, not demands.

I'm stating the facts. Ceton doesn't owe anybody here anything. They don't owe me an InfiniTV4 that performs to my liking, they don't owe you an Echo that performs to your liking, and they sure as heck don't owe anybody a refund that failed to request a refund during the return period. We all got what we paid for, we all kept our products, and now we all have to deal with it.

Can you please stop misstating the position of other people. Who exactly is saying that Ceton owes them an Echo that performs to their liking? There are plenty of people that are saying Ceton should deliver on what Ceton said they would, but that isn't the same thing as delivering what is to someone's liking. They may have some overlap, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. If you can point to anyone on here who is expecting anything other than what Ceton said they are going to deliver at some point, I'll gladly join you in telling that person to get a grip on reality. But I think you'll find that those people few and far between.

I see you and adam must be using the same trolling playbook to get your strawman arguments.

[Deuce911]

Well I bought a 2nd Echo from Newegg when they had them on sale "Months" ago on the basis that the Android code was coming, still sitting in the box from Newegg and never opened. Guess I am the sucker here , hey Ceton how about a refund for this crap. My current one is on the 320 firmware and about 4 times a week it just reboots so they had better get the new updates coming now that the Android has failed, I have been very patient and if there is a Class Action suit count me in.

[Diverge]

If I had to guess, I'd say that most of the people relentlessly defending the pullout from android and probably people that got to test the beta of android. Everyone else is just mad that they been waiting for almost of a year in the dark, and got no new updates to the normal echo, and didn't get to check out the android version. I could be wrong though, it's just a guess

I returned mine at the end of the return window, since I run windows 8 in my HTPC. I was looking forward to Android and going to repurchase one. I almost just ordered on Newegg for the $125, but then remembered it would be useless for me, since there is no hope for windows 8 support now. I guess it's keeping my xbox 360 around for me, and hoping MS is hiding something for the Xbox One (which I doubt).

[richard1980]

That's funny. Because I'm pretty sure I said "For the most part, I don't see people on here demanding anything."

I guess I just assumed that you were posting those as counter points to my point

I was...but not to the "for the most part" part of your post. I was countering the part that followed it...the part about how you saw people "express a desire to get firmware updates for the WMX platform" and "suggesting a refund or credit". I assumed that what you meant was that the people wanting a firmware update or refund/credit were not demanding those things, and based on your subsequent responses, it looks like my assumption was correct. You obviously interpreted something very different from those posts than I did. The first six posts I linked, I interpreted as demands for either firmware updates or a refund/credit. But that's my interpretation. You are welcome to have your own interpretation.

Can you please stop misstating the position of other people.

I'm not. You are misinterpreting my posts.

If you can point to anyone on here who is expecting anything other than what Ceton said they are going to deliver at some point, I'll gladly join you in telling that person to get a grip on reality.

Not once have I suggested that anybody was expecting anything more than what Ceton said they were going to deliver.

There are plenty of people that are saying Ceton should deliver on what Ceton said they would, but that isn't the same thing as delivering what is to someone's liking.

In order to perform to someone's liking, a specific set of criteria must be met. That criteria obviously varies from person to person. So let's say there's a hypothetical person that has a set of criteria, and one of those criteria is Android. If Ceton doesn't deliver Android, the Echo will not satisfy all of the criteria, and thus will not perform to the person's liking.

I haven't seen anybody complain because the Echo doesn't have or can't do something that wasn't on the list of things that Ceton said the Echo would have or do. What I see here is a group of people that used various things from Ceton's list to compile their own set of criteria. And in order for the Echo to perform to a person's liking, it has to meet all of the criteria that the person set...which (from what I can tell), only includes things that Ceton said it would have/do. So I fail to see how Ceton delivering what they said they would is any different than delivering an Echo that performs to someone's liking. The only way I can see how they could be different is if a person's criteria were to include something that Ceton never said the Echo would have/do. I can't find any such post, and based on your sentence two quotes up, it doesn't appear that you can either.

Edit: I can certainly rephrase if you would like: Ceton doesn't owe anybody an Echo that has/does all of the things Ceton said it would eventually have/do. Unless of course a person has a contract in place with Ceton for something more than what's in the box, in which case I would encourage that person to pursue legal action against Ceton if Ceton breaches or has breached the contract. But if there's no contract, there's no legal claim to anything more than what was in the box when the Echo was purchased. Ceton could announce tomorrow that they are ceasing all work on the Echo, and there is not a damn thing anybody can do about it. That's the harsh reality that some people apparently don't understand. If somebody wants to have an opinion, that's fine...they'll be wrong, and the price for being wrong is $179. Meanwhile, the people that actually understand reality either aren't complaining, didn't buy the Echo, or returned it when they had the chance. Guess what the price is for being right? It's certainly not $179.

Who exactly is saying that Ceton owes them an Echo that performs to their liking?

After reading my response above, I'm hoping the answer is evident.

[iauctionexpress]

I keep coming back here thinking the back and forth he said, she(he) said, ridiculousness may have finally stopped. Wrong again.