WMC to be separate add-on in W8

[gcoupe]

There's an interesting pair of comments from Barb Bowman in this thread:

I have been told that WMC will not be included in any version of W8.

I have also been told there are no improvements or upgrades to WMC.

The thing about being a pessimist is that I'm very rarely disappointed...

[cw-kid]

There's an interesting pair of comments from Barb Bowman in this thread:

I have been told that WMC will not be included in any version of W8.

I have also been told there are no improvements or upgrades to WMC.

The thing about being a pessimist is that I'm very rarely disappointed...

I've not heard the first statement (Other than the new announcement) but the second one sounds about right.

Barb is one of the longest standing MVP's for Media Center and has been actively involved from the start of it all.

[adam1991]

Right. Those users aren't excluded in the least under the gloom-and-doom scenarios being put forth here.

[cw-kid]

Right. Those users aren't excluded in the least under the gloom-and-doom scenarios being put forth here.

So if I buy a new laptop from PC World with Windows 8 and that standard version of Windows 8 cannot download the media pack / media center how am I not excluded in that scenario?

I think this media pack will be made available to none Pro users of Windows 8, its probably just the way MS worded it on that blog that is wrong.

If it turns out to be true that only Windows 8 pro can download it, then that is just dumb on Microsoft's part but there will probably be a hack.

[STC]

^ I said this before, and I will again - Perhaps there is a functional reason for it to only be available through Pro, and that could be a security mechanism that only Pro would have.

[cw-kid]

^ I said this before, and I will again - Perhaps there is a functional reason for it to only be available through Pro, and that could be a security mechanism that only Pro would have.

Possibly but I think this would be more of a political reason rather than a technical one.

[richard1980]

Right. Those users aren't excluded in the least under the gloom-and-doom scenarios being put forth here.

So if I buy a new laptop from PC World with Windows 8 and that standard version of Windows 8 cannot download the media pack / media center how am I not excluded in that scenario?

I think this media pack will be made available to none Pro users of Windows 8, its probably just the way MS worded it on that blog that is wrong.

If it turns out to be true that only Windows 8 pro can download it, then that is just dumb on Microsoft's part.

Adam is referring to the fact that you can upgrade to Pro with Windows Anytime Upgrade, and even the basic version of Windows 8 should include WAU. So technically, users of the basic version are not 100% excluded from using WMC. They have the option to upgrade to Pro and then buy WMC.

But at the same time, Adam is missing your point. Adam, Stuart's point is that users of the basic version of Windows 8 will not be able to buy WMC. Users of the basic version are excluded from being able to buy WMC until they upgrade to Pro. The correct answer would have been to allow users of the basic version of Windows 8 to be able to purchase WMC without having to upgrade to Pro.

[cw-kid]

Very diplomatic Richard, thank you.

Time will tell, I doubt MS will clarify for us, as communications from them are all but dead. We will just have to wait and see as we always have to in the end..

EDIT; Well I will leave you to ponder further, I am going to Thailand in the morning so need to get my stuff together.

[makryger]

Well I will leave you to ponder further, I am going to Thailand in the morning so need to get my stuff together.

Have a safe trip! Perhaps a buddhist monk will enlighten you on Microsoft's true intentions of this move.

[cw-kid]

Well I will leave you to ponder further, I am going to Thailand in the morning so need to get my stuff together.

Have a safe trip! Perhaps a buddhist monk will enlighten you on Microsoft's true intentions of this move.

Haha I will meditate on the subject.

[adam1991]

Right. Those users aren't excluded in the least under the gloom-and-doom scenarios being put forth here.

So if I buy a new laptop from PC World with Windows 8 and that standard version of Windows 8 cannot download the media pack / media center how am I not excluded in that scenario?

Because you may choose to upgrade your Windows in place directly, giving you access to new features that you want. All without buying a new computer a new copy of Windows, or reinstalling.

I think this media pack will be made available to none Pro users of Windows 8, its probably just the way MS worded it on that blog that is wrong.

That is the most likely situation.

[richard1980]

Adam, I doubt it will do you any good to argue with that guy. He obviously doesn't know WTF he is talking about. You might as well be Stephen Hawking aruging with a 3rd grader about physics.

[STC]

Sorry all, I attempted to split the 29/59 comments to another thread whilst it was locked and it resulted in some unexpected behavior. A couple of posts I had checked on the last page have been 'split' into nothing and are not recoverable. The only thing I was able to do is go back in my browser cache and get copies of the text. I am posting them below. They will read a little out of sync, richard has a post in between these two, but I have few options left. I am going to leave this thread alone for now before I harm it any more! Once again apologies

[STC]

Re: WMC to be separate add-on in W8

Postby haydongreenbutton » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:58 am
I really really wish this was in another thread. I just mention the 29/59Hz bug and it generates this firestorm below. I tried to trim it as much as possible but important context and major points get lost. Themes which are hammered on again and again and again. I'm not going to get into technical details and instead keep this at a level everyone reading can test things for themselves without diving into bits. Don't mistake that for ignorance. I'll go away after this post on this topic because I'm happy to be shouted down and frankly my time is to valuable to waste on this.

Here's the takeaway: The encoding is correct, WMC's video path fails and Microsoft needs to correct that.

You guys have latched onto something that on the face of it appears wrong (the metadata) and you are basing your beliefs on the premise that it's what's "wrong". The encoding isn't WMC friendly, sure, but that doesn't mean it's incorrect. Most people would recognize that only WMC is exhibiting this problem and rationally come to this conclusion and stop at this point. But you didn't...


adam199 wrote:Microsoft has exactly ZERO to do with what you are erroneously calling the "29/59 bug". However, you perpetuate this myth that "it's all MS's fault."

I'm sick and tired of the ignorance and lack of facts that's been bandied about in this and other Win8 threads. MC today isn't "broken" with respect to any "29/59 bug", so it's time that we as an institution of MC knowledge take it upon ourselves to strike down and stop the perpetuation of this kind of silliness.

If you want to rant, go ahead--but don't start slinging ignorance around just because you're looking for some reason to attack MS and are willing to make things up out of thin air to do it. I'd like to think that this place is above that kind of behavior.

Is it any wonder that MS would ignore MC if they continue to take heat for circumstances that have nothing to do with MC? What's next--blaming MS and MC because your dog died?



For what it's worth usually companies address issues when they're taking heat for them. Microsoft clearly has enough control over their Windows platform to correct this issue. To think otherwise is foolish. The cause is clearly outside of Ceton's area of responsibility but Ceton is attempting a workaround because Microsoft isn't fixing the issue. Know why? Because it's their business that's on the line.

Who is attacking Microsoft? It's a bug dude. Microsoft is used to bugs. They have ways to report them and they even fix them.

Microsoft could care less what a few people on message boards say about a bug that affects a tiny percentage of their users. They've lived through UAE and blue screen firestorms... and guess what? Improved their product because the thing that really mattered was money. This issue and WMC don't rate on their money meter which is really why WMC is getting stripped from Win8. Do you really think that it's because people on message boards are talking about issues they have???

adam1991 wrote:Any problems that the end user sees because of the 29/59 issue do not arise from Media Center at all, and Media Center has no responsibility to do anything other than what it's told inside the digital bits.

It's time to put this issue to bed right now, and to stop calling it "the 29/59 bug". It's not a bug with respect to MS or Media Center, period. That is an old wives' tale that resulted from people yelling loudly and putting the initial story on page 1 (because it makes for good MS bashing), but the factual investigation on page 23 where nobody bothers to see it or pay attention. And in the end, MS pays the price for something that has NOTHING to do with them.

If you want to scream at someone and demand your money back, may I present you with the phone numbers to your local cable company and the networks they re-sell. Oh--but you know that going after the actual SOURCE of the issue would be fruitless, so you join in the ignorati and yell for MS's head on a platter because it sounds better and makes you feel good.

Fact: there is no "bug" inside WMC with respect to the 29/59 issue. Get that through your head, and stop blaming MS for every problem in the world up to and including ear mites.



Nonsense! WMC and the video pipeline aren't blind to the "digital bits". Their purpose in life is the interpretation of those bits and to turning those bits into video that customers enjoy. Microsoft's engineers didn't see this one coming and we have the problem that's being talked about here. MS is responsible for adhering to the standard and doing the right thing. Even if the encoding was busted do you have any idea how many workarounds are in software to correct for other people's bad behavior? If you think anyone in this industry can stand on a pedestal and say "my functionality is broken because of someone else's bug" and expect payment for that busted functionality you're not going to get far.

Calling it "Microsoft bashing", "ignorance", claiming "facts", "whining", "ignorati", "rant", "scream" and every other loaded word used doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Pursuing a resolution through my cable company is fruitless. First, they'd be correct to tell someone to buzz off on this issue. Second, when the issue is over compatibility with common practice the outliers need to get in line. In this case the outlier is Microsoft. So pursuing a resolution through Microsoft makes sense.

[See italics above] Which after seeing your many heated responses is how most people who have the issue feel.

adam1991 wrote:Sorry, but I'm sick and tired of this forum being used to continue to spread such ignorance and misinformation on a technical point that is undisputable.

That's not what this forum is about, and yet those who want to whine about how they hate MS and Win8 continue to use that bit of total ignorance as part of their platform and spread it like a noxious weed.



I'm not even going to ask what your qualifications are and how you came to this "undisputable" conclusion. I don't know what the exact problem in Windows is but Ceton and Microsoft sure do. I can perform some simple experiments and make some simple observations that show that WMC and the video pipeline are creating the problem.

richard1980 wrote:I am 100% positive that the 29/59 "bug" is not Microsoft's fault. Adam is correct on this. Ceton may have discovered an error in the EVR, or maybe Carl misinterpreted something Ceton said. I don't know. But I can assure you, even if there is an error with the EVR, fixing that error isn't going to magically fix the content. As long as the content continues to have the wrong information embedded in it, there will always be a problem.



Nonsense. Unfortunately your system configuration doesn't exhibit the problem for some reason so these simple experiments won't benefit you. However most people can do several things that show that the problem lies within WMC and the video pipeline. Try any of these and anyone can see that the content is decoded correctly and there are no 29/59 issues:

Run WMC in a Window on the desktop.
Download and run VLC. Do it on the desktop. Do it full screen.
Play the video through Microsoft's own Media Player. Do it on the desktop. Do it full screen.
Load up Linux on the box and play the video. Whoa! It fricken works!


adam1991 wrote:The issue is not apparent with WMC, either--and to prove it, I invite you to come to my house and watch whatever content you want.

The data are there, but WMC has no problem with it. WMC processes, correctly, what it's given and then passes it on, correctly. And whatever combination of hardware *I* have, or the cableco provides, handles it.

Ergo, the problem is not within WMC.

Sounds like some people want Microsoft, the big bad boy, to take responsibility for fixing every problem that's introduced from any source and which exhibits itself in any potential hardware configuration.

That Microsoft does not do that, does not make it a Microsoft "bug".



Before you at least admitted that there was an issue (blamed it on the content providers) and now you deny it exists altogether? You've got the classic "It works on my box" mentality. I hope you're not a developer.

richard1980 wrote:I've been saying the same thing as Adam for a long time. But some people don't understand the difference between a problem with WMC and a problem with the hardware WMC is running on. All some people see is "I'm seeing a problem while I'm using WMC, so it must be WMC's fault". That is wrong. Don't blame Microsoft because a GPU manufacturer made a bad GPU. Blame the GPU manufacturer. Don't blame Microsoft because a user decided to use a bad GPU. Blame the user. And don't blame Microsoft because content encoders encode the content incorrectly. Blame the encoder. There are plenty of things to blame Microsoft for, but this is not one of them.

And that idea that cable box manufacturers have developed a workaround....that's false. Cable boxes don't have problems for the exact same reason that I don't have problems...they are using a graphics processor that is powerful enough to get the job done. My computer is using a graphics processor that is powerful enough to get the job done. And guess what? I don't have any problems in WMC that don't exist in a cable box (both exhibit signs of incorrect processing because the content is marked wrong, but other than that, I have no issues with the 29/59 content).

There is absolutely no reason to blame Microsoft, and people that continue to blame Microsoft for this issue just show their lack of knowledge or stubbornness. There is plenty of technical data available about this issue, and if you don't understand it, you should ask someone that does understand it. Don't just blame Microsoft for no reason. What's next, are you going to try to install WMC on an 80286 rig and then get mad at Microsoft when it doesn't work?

Sorry for going off topic...this should really be split out from this thread.



Any low end video card can display full screen video just fine. The chips in cable boxes are far less powerful than what we've got in our PCs. Again, you're latching on to something irrelevant and claiming victory.

Cable box manufacturers haven't developed a workaround, unlike Microsoft, their silicon providers got it right.

I don't know how you two have so strongly convinced yourselves that you've "proven" (that's a high bar) your conclusion regarding this issue. You're going to have to rethink your logic on this one because very simple experiments wipe out the foundation of your argument. And for clarity here are the points in your foundation and rebuttals:

the hardware is too "slow" to handle the video - shown to be false by using other software
the content providers have got it all wrong - shown to be false by the rest of the industry and by using other software
people are making this bug up - you're making this up


People will continue to post about the issue until there's a resolution, the product is no longer serviceable or they give up. If you've got a better argument that might be useful.

Hope this helps.

[STC]

Postby adam1991 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:11 pm

For what it's worth usually companies address issues when they're taking heat for them. Microsoft clearly has enough control over their Windows platform to correct this issue. To think otherwise is foolish. The cause is clearly outside of Ceton's area of responsibility but Ceton is attempting a workaround because Microsoft isn't fixing the issue. Know why? Because it's their business that's on the line.

Who is attacking Microsoft? It's a bug dude. Microsoft is used to bugs. They have ways to report them and they even fix them.



It's not a Microsoft bug any more than "when I turn the steering wheel hard left at 70mph the car flips over and crashes" is a GM bug. Physics works; don't do that.

But everyone jumps on GM to take on the nanny responsibility, that isn't theirs to begin with, and prevent bad driving from hurting the one doing the bad driving--only because GM is big, and because no one is willing to step up and tell the driver to take responsibility for himself.

Just because a company is big, doesn't mean it's that company's responsibility to solve the ills of the world.

And just because much of the world has made it a sport to bash Microsoft, doesn't make it right. "We can't realistically make the content providers change what THEY do, so..." is not an excuse to participate in the MS bashing.

[dmccall]

My prerequisite thoughts:

• Making Media Center a downloadable add pack is perfectly logical. No reason to saddle 98.5% of Windows users with Dolby license fees etc.
• Making MC8 only an option from MC8 Professional makes absolutely no sense. Just make the download cost more if you need to.

Microsoft is Opting Out of a Potential Half a BILLION Dollars with Their Handling of Media Center for Windows 8
We've seen the numbers: 1.5% of 400million users who opted into the survey used Media Center for more than 10 minutes in July '11. Therefore it is a reasonable assumption that there are 6 million Media Center users out there. Too, we've seen the Media Center offering in Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and Ed Bott contends that WYSIWYG; there will be no modifications to Media Center beyond what we have seen.

If Media Center in Windows 8 is just exactly the version in Windows 7, then why would anyone purchase Windows 8 Professional and a Media Pack Upgrade, carrying a total cost of presumably $200 at least, when they can just get Windows 7 for $100 on their HTPC? In 2014 Microsoft will see that FAR FEWER than 6 million people downloaded the Media Pack Upgrade, and will declare that Media Center just wasn't all that enticing all along, and that they shouldn't have included it in Windows 8.

However Media Pack for Windows 8 Professional can easily be modified into something that the 6 million Media Center users actually want. Given that the Metro interface of Windows 8 is where future media plugins will be developed, Media Center users are generally optimistic about future apps from the likes of Netflix, Hulu, HBO, etc that would be accessed from the Windows 8 Metro Interface. Too, new apps for music, photos, videos, and games will appear in the Metro space, so Media Center users really only need 4 items from Media Center:

• Live TV
• Guide
• Recorded TV
• Settings

All Microsoft has to do is do a little bit of coding to establish Metro interface links to these modules in Media Center, as well as offer Green Button and Back button behavior that returns users to the Windows 8 Start Menu (where other media options will exist) instead of the Media Center Start menu. By just making these easy modifications, Microsoft can make what is essentially a 2005 ecosystem product relevant beyond 2020. If Ed Bott is correct, these easy changes won't happen, and Media Center will stand as a product that cannot be relevant 5 years from now.

What will all of this cost Microsoft?
The simple alterations to Media Center would take far less effort and time than Microsoft has already spent both porting Media Center into Windows 8 and converting Media Center to a downloadable package.

The other side of the ledger sheds a very different light on the situation for Microsoft. We don't know pricing of the Media Pack, but let's just say it costs $85. 6 million downloads of an $85 package is $480 million. We've learned that Media Center carries ~$10 of licensing, so let's say Microsoft only charges $20 for the download. Six million downloads would generate $120 million of revenue.

So, potentially, Microsoft is walking away from half a billion dollars because they will not spend a weekend doing a little bit of encoding. Is it too ambitious to assume that 6 million people would download an $85 add-on? I don't think so. The 6 million (maybe more) users of Media Center are smart users who would absolutely love to see Media Center alongside new streaming apps in the Metro layer down the road.

Worst case scenario is that Media Pack gets only 1 million downloads and they charge $20. That's $20 million, and I don't know any coders at Microsoft who work for more than that. So making Media Center profitable is a slam dunk, but only if Microsoft opens their eyes to reality. Their positioning for Media Center in Windows 8 is nothing but illogical and certainly opens my mind to alternatives as my media consumption patterns change over the next decade.

[mark1234]

In this week's Windows Weekly podcast they (Laporte, Thurrott & Foley) discuss Win8 and include a piece on Media Centre. They basically agree with the pessimistic comments on here.

http://twit.tv/show/windows-weekly/257

[milli260876]

If they want to kill wmc, that's fine.. I'm sure OEMs (tv cards) could easily come up with some nice metro UI apps.
The only downside to that being you need one hardware manufacturer, which in my experience is better anyway..
Just make metro a bit more remote friendly please, the video and music apps are unusable with a remote.

[richard1980]

So for those of you that had your doubts, Microsoft confirmed today that WMC will not be available for Windows 8 without upgrading to Windows 8 Pro. You upgrade to Pro by getting something called the Windows 8 Pro Pack, which upgrades you to Windows 8 Pro and adds WMC.

[adam1991]

This doesn't make sense:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012 ... ows-8.aspx

So it looks like there are three possible states of Windows 8:

* Windows 8
* Windows 8 Pro (without Media Center Pack)
* Windows 8 Pro (with Media Center Pack)

So I can buy Windows 8 Pro off the shelf and it won't have MC; however, if I start with plain Win8 I cannot upgrade in place to Windows 8 Pro without paying for and getting the whole schmear, including MC?

The whole story has yet to be told, frankly.