CGMS flags rendering my HDHR Prime useless

[red192]

A few months ago many of our family's favorite shows would no longer record with Windows 7 Media Center giving the error "recording of this content is prohibited by the content provider." I had the folks at Silicon Dust take a look and after collecting some diagnostic info, gave the following explanation:

The channel is being flagged with CGMS protection set to copy never. This particular type of protection is set by the originator of the channel, not your cable provider. WMC is behaving as it as required to behave when encountering this and prohibiting recording of the channel. The channel should not be flagging their content this way in the first place. It is almost certainly a mistake on the part of the station (we've seen it happen before when they upgrade the software on some of their equipment, and it defaults to enabling that protection). You'll need to contact the station and ask for someone in engineering, and let them know that you're being prohibited from recording their shows by a setting in their broadcast, and ask them to check their equipment. The past cases we have seen this was caused by a device made by Miranda, specifically a setting labeled as Copy & Redistribution Control, which was turned on. Once turned off, the affected people were able to record the channel without issue.

Has anyone seen this before? And what can be done short of contacting the engineering departments of all the cable channels? I really like the HDHR Prime and Windows combination, but thinking of throwing in the towel now.

[christoph86]

I have not seen it, but it is a bit worrisome. How many channels does this happen on? Is it on all shows on that channel or is it just select shows?

[red192]

Have not tried to record all shows on each channel... but have had the problem when trying to record the Young and the Restless/CBS-D WWJ, Adventure Time/Cartoon Network, Project Runway/Lifetime HD, The Voice/ABC ... seems to happen with all the goofy shows my wife and kids want to watch.

I posted this in the Windows 7 board because there is nothing wrong with the HDHR Prime -- the issue is with the Windows7 DRM rules and these dang flags that are specific to cable cards -- they do not affect the Comcast DVR.

[epayson85]

Where are you located? I have comcast too, but obviously if we aren't in the same area it could be different. I am in the boston area and have both a homerun prime and a ceton pcie 6 so I could test recording these shows. With the Prime I would try recording those shows on a different computer too just to see if you get the same result. Also try viewing the show in the quick tv software or another DVR software. Any DRM would cause those shows to not work in the other software. If they work this would tell you something is wrong with windows media center.

[red192]

I'm in the Detroit area -- using Comcast Southeast MI Royal Oak Digital channel lineup. CBS-D WWJ is a local broadcaster of "The Young and The Restless," but maybe "Project Runway All Stars" on Lifetime HD would replicate the error. The shows can be watched in windows and quick tv -- but they cannot be recorded. I'm using a clean install of Window 7 64 bit ultimate, with all updates current, and HD HomeRun Software - 20130708beta1HD (had the same problems with 20130328 firmware)

[richard1980]

SiliconDust's explanation is wrong (at least partially wrong). If the problem originated at the source, then everyone that receives Lifetime or Cartoon Network would experience the same issue (i.e., you'd see other people here with the same problem, and TiVo's forums would be blowing up as well). Additionally, the odds are not good that the same problem would affect multiple unrelated sources (CBS is owned by CBS, Lifetime is owned by Disney, and Cartoon Network is owned by Time Warner...what are the odds that all 3 companies are making the exact same mistake?)

I think the problem is actually with the local cable company.

[epayson85]

I think the problem is actually with the local cable company.

I agree with Richard1980. It has to be the local cable company. Broadcast channels would never put that flag in for one of their shows. If it plays in quick tv though that is really odd. I would try using NPVR, Media Portal, or even sage tv to record. They can't read DRM just like quick tv can't. So if they were in quick tv they will work in those programs and you will be able to copy just fine. However, if the DRM is legit then it shouldn't be working in quick tv so it all sounds a bit odd to me.

[red192]

I shared your observations with SiliconDust, and continued to test things. After the errant CGMS flag popped up when attempting to record "The Young and the Restless" attempts to record other shows also failed with the same "prohibited by the content provider" error in WMC7 -- despite these shows being flagged correctly by their respective broadcasters. The reason, according to SiliconDust is:

the issue is a bug in WMC that causes it to incorrectly apply the restriction to other channels once it has encountered it on the first channel. If you reboot the PC and the HDHomeRun device, you should then be able to record everything except WWJ, at least until it encounters that copying prohibited setting again.

So according to this analysis ...by attempting to record Y&R everyday ... I am "infecting" both my WMC7 PC and HDHR Prime device with this CGMS flag,that was introduced by mistake when an engineer at CBS-D WWJ in Detroit updated their Miranda card software. Chaos theory lives.

[richard1980]

Now that response could be correct.

[erkotz]

Have not tried to record all shows on each channel... but have had the problem when trying to record the Young and the Restless/CBS-D WWJ, Adventure Time/Cartoon Network, Project Runway/Lifetime HD, The Voice/ABC ... seems to happen with all the goofy shows my wife and kids want to watch.

I posted this in the Windows 7 board because there is nothing wrong with the HDHR Prime -- the issue is with the Windows7 DRM rules and these dang flags that are specific to cable cards -- they do not affect the Comcast DVR.

Windows Media Center is behaving as designed - the problem is the flagging of the TV station

SiliconDust's explanation is wrong (at least partially wrong). If the problem originated at the source, then everyone that receives Lifetime or Cartoon Network would experience the same issue (i.e., you'd see other people here with the same problem, and TiVo's forums would be blowing up as well). Additionally, the odds are not good that the same problem would affect multiple unrelated sources (CBS is owned by CBS, Lifetime is owned by Disney, and Cartoon Network is owned by Time Warner...what are the odds that all 3 companies are making the exact same mistake?)

I think the problem is actually with the local cable company.

It might be the stations are ClearQAM in his area. When a station has a CCI (including Copy Freely) CGMS is ignored. If a station has no CCI, CGMS is honored.

[red192]

What about the issue of WMC failing to record other shows that have been flagged correctly? That can't be part of the design.

[richard1980]

It might be the stations are ClearQAM in his area.

That could explain the issues with ABC and CBS (as long as they are ClearQAM), but it does not explain the issues with Lifetime and Cartoon Network. He's in Comcast's Detroit market....neither Lifetime nor Cartoon Network are ClearQAM there.

[signcarver]

That's the point of their response of the "bug" in WMC (though I have never seen or heard of this bug but years ago did see cgms problems when CCI wasn't present and recording clear qam) as what they are saying is that at least this installation of WMC has a bug that when it encounters CGMS copy never on Y&R, it isn't releasing that setting when tuning to the other channels. Unfortunately I can't test it as all my channels now have CCI present and can only relate to what happened 2 years ago which for me did not present this problem when tuned to another channel. Unfortunately you may need to be present to determine if it is the prime at fault... and see what the prime is reporting in it's tuner status for CCI and cgms when it switches to record something else. I'll also throw out the idea that the bug may be introduced with the prime drivers... possibly having something to do with how they attempted to fix tuner not found or all tuners in use errors somehow keeping that setting alive in what they use to keep the connection to the prime alive (again, this is just a theory of what might be happening... the only thing "known" at this time is that apparently the CGMS copy never is sticking in WMC and it isn't recognizing new settings when the channel is changed).

I know when I had any problems with cgms, switching to another tuner fixed it (a local commercial near the top of the hour used to be marked copy never and WMC would try another tuner)... It seems long ago but I think I might have encountered a similar sticking issue in vista as the scifi "if" identification break used to also be marked copy never while I was recording analog (I think I am the only one who ever had recording analog issues like this in vista) and being enforced then sticking the rest of the night on that one particular tuner again switching to another analog tuner fixed it.

The only other thing I can think of is that a late CCI somehow also keeps this setting alive but I would think that the spec would be required to monitor and adapt to changes, unless this has something to do with how a clear program (which needs no CCI) reacts to getting it late. (This probably would pass as it is keeping the most restrictive setting... going the other way and keeping a copy-freely would fail)

To OP has a date for the locals being encrypted been set in that area? Once that happens, CCI should be present that should override that CGMS issue (It's expected in encrypted, and a couple of years ago most providers didn't set it on clear... I even have some old documentation that states it can't be set on clear but I know that it can be as I see it on my locals) Until then, since when I had a similar problem changing tuners seemed to fix it, you might need to force Y&R to only record off the least used tuner then schedule something to restart the prime and possible the WMC services at a convenient time between shows but more than likely you will just have to stop trying to record y&R.... you may want to check the logs and see if this tries on every tuner like it used to for me when it encountered copy-never.

[red192]

After speaking with the TV Station (they are not flagging the show incorrectly and think Comcast may be the culprit) I needed to rule out Windows Media Center -- so I built a MythTV computer, scheduled the same recording of Young and The Restless using the same HDHR Prime CC device -- and today, it seems to have worked fine. So in my mind, Windows 7 Media Center is the problem. I think the Mythtv box will record most of the shows that my family wants, seems faster and easier to share around the house than Windows7 Home Groups, does not need a expensive licensing or special hardware front-end -- and we can use the Comcast DVR to record the HBO shows and Movies. So thanks for your time and thoughtful consideration -- I think we can mark this one solved for now as long as you are willing to give up Windows 7 Media Center.