A New Project for Modern WMC Development

Discussion of getting WMC to work on Windows 10 (unsupported)
Space

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Re: A New Project for Modern WMC Development

#121

Post by Space » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:34 pm

jjwatmyself wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:31 pm
Keep in mind that one day the guide on WMC will stop working.

HdHomeRun DVR is pretty good as well as the DRM support. I thought that the recording and playback of DRM was working but may be wrong. I an not aware of that being a function of which cable provider you have.
...
When Microsoft stops providing the guide, EPG123 with Schedules Direct can replace it.

DRM recordings are not working on the HDHomerun DVR. Getting this working involves getting it certified by CableLabs, members of which I believe consist of the CEOs of many of the major cable companies. I am not sure of the exact approval process, but getting it to pass muster is extremely difficult. I'm guessing due to most of the cable companies not wanting any competition to their own cable boxes and DVRs (and the lucrative monthly fees they can charge to rent them).

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#122

Post by IT Troll » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:27 pm

jjwatmyself wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:31 pm
Keep in mind that one day the guide on WMC will stop working.
Not any time soon if you use EPG123. That is using data from Schedules Direct which is used by many PVR systems. However, Microsoft will turn off their feed one day. Perhaps sometime after 2023 when Windows 8 goes EOL.

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#123

Post by MILGEO » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:50 am

Thanks for the feed back guys, I really hate to change the set up I have but I guess it's not going to stay viable indefinitely. I would love to be able to just keep using my Windows 7 HTPC with WMC and don't mind if I have to upgrade the epg. I have other PC's on the network which I will definitely upgrade to Windows 10. I have a business PC on the network which will offer some other problems to upgrade. When I upgraded from XP ( I was a last minute hold out on that too) I had to buy 3rd party software to get my HP Laser MFP to work which was only about 2 years old at the time. My first one cost me just under $1000. But that's HP (horrible product). I also have an HP flat bed scanner and an HP Ink jet for color which might or might not work with Windows 10. But I will just have to deal with those when I upgrade the other PC. Not likely buying anymore HP if I need to upgrade any of them. They used to be great products (at least printers) at one time, no more!

You guys think it's safe to keep running Windows 7 after January 2020?

Aside from streaming, which I hate doing, what is it that you guys are doing to deal with this? I have access to Netflix by way of my daughters licence which allows a certain amount of PC's, but I rarely use it.There is nothing like having your own recording which you can watch even if the power and cable are down and you're using a generator.

I haven't heard back from Dave about the software which allows you to run WMC within Windows 10. I don't know if he was referring to a VM or something else.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

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#124

Post by MILGEO » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:14 am

I forgot to mention that I have 1 laptop which runs WMC on Windows 7. It's the first PC I set up to verify that I could make WMC work before building my HTPC about 5-6 years ago. I have two other laptops in the house which will be the first to transition to Windows 10. I have to get used to Windows 10 eventually. I'll be doing one soon. I already downloaded it to a usb stick.

Thanks again!

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#125

Post by jjwatmyself » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:11 am

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkell ... -cost/amp/

Looks like you can pay to have support (security patches) through January 2023.

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#126

Post by aeblank » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:30 am

Any standalone device wouldn't get upgraded/updated. XP (embedded ND otherwise) is certainly till very much out there. I don't understand the "need" to move away from windows 7. I plan to run it till the cows come home.

I have a win10 stick computer I run WMC on. I think I've finally gotten the updates to stop (and stop breaking it). So if there's a better way, that would be nice....

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#127

Post by Sammy2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:50 pm

So with the choice between Win7 MCE or hacked Win10 MCE with neither having support the clear winner is Win7 MCE.

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#128

Post by MILGEO » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:54 pm

I appreciate the added input. It definitely gives me a lot to think about and verifies that I was wrong in thinking this new project is at all what I thought it was going to be.

jjwatmyself, below is a caption from the link you provided. I don't know what they mean by only volume pricing customers will qualify but I thought and I heard elsewhere that extended support would be offered to Windows 7 Enterprise customers such as large corporations for a fee. If they will offer it to anyone with Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, then that would be an option for me if the monthly fee is not ridiculously high. They do expressly say that the price will continue to rise as time goes by and that it will not be offered indefinitely, so it's just putting off the inevitable. I don't know if I'm being overly paranoid about the loss of Windows 7 security patches, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that I'm a victim of identity theft. I use a business PC on the network and do online banking as well as communicate with my accountant on it. I've heard many horror stories about identity theft from those that had it happen. Also I know someone personally who's mother had her PC locked down from ransomware a year ago.

Worse still, as it stands, Microsoft is currently only making this offer to Windows 7 Professional customers in Volume Licensing. Some small businesses may qualify, but the vast majority of everyday consumers (most of whom are running Windows 7 Home) will not.

Obviously, Microsoft’s stance may change but, until it does, Windows 7 consumers will have to upgrade to Windows 10 or Windows 8 (support lasts until January 10th, 2023). Staying put will be unthinkable as every new vulnerability will be unpatched, leaving security holes big enough for hackers to drive a bus through
.

aeblank, so am I correct in understanding that you are still running XP on your home network and intend to continue running Windows 7 after support ends? I don't know what you mean in having a win 10 stick computer. If you were referring to my comment about having Windows 10 on a stick, I meant that I've downloaded it to a USB stick and will be installing it on a couple of laptops (not the one running WMC or my HTPC which is the one I use the most for WMC).

Sammy2 I agree that given those 2 choices, just staying with Windows 7 would make more sense. Although if a stable version of WMC on Windows 10 could be achieved, then that would be the best thing that could happen.

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#129

Post by W10MC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:15 am

MILGEO wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:54 pm
Although if a stable version of WMC on Windows 10 could be achieved, then that would be the best thing that could happen.
Windows 10 version 1511 (also known as the Windows 10 November Update) is the last version that works reliably with CableCARD tuners in WMC, including DRM content. Subsequent updates cause issues with tuner functionality and ultimately break copy protection. These issues will likely never be resolved, so your best option is to run a Pro or Enterprise edition of this version of Windows 10 (10.0.10586.0) on a dedicated PC with all updates disabled. Install the Windows Media Center package from MDL that was ported from Windows 8.1 (6.3.9600.16384). Multiple users, including Crash2009, have had this exact configuration, and everything is running smoothly, even with Xbox 360s connected as Extenders. If you set up a new system properly, it should function for many years to come.

I'm working on a comprehensive article detailing the complete setup process for WMC on Windows 10. It will be posted on windows10mediacenter.com in the near future.
-Mike

Windows 10 Media Center Community
An independent project for media application development.

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#130

Post by Space » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:01 am

W10MC wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:15 am
...
These issues will likely never be resolved, so your best option is to run a Pro or Enterprise edition of this version of Windows 10 (10.0.10586.0) on a dedicated PC with all updates disabled.
...
So either run an unpatched version of Win7, or run an unpatched version of Win10?

Assuming you can still get (payed) security patches for Win7 after the 2020 end date, I would think that Win7 is the better option, because you can still install the latest patches without breaking DRM. With Win10, you are stuck at the 10.0.10586.0 version with no possibility of being able to install any security patches that may come after that version.

Perhaps I am wrong about this, I don't know much about Win10 versions, maybe that version continues to get security patches?

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#131

Post by MILGEO » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:57 pm

Thanks for the continued updates guys. I guess I have a lot to think about.

Mike, I look forward to reading you're upcoming outline. I don't have any PC's running Windows 10 yet but I heard that you could only postpone updates if you have certain versions and even then it would only be a temporary postponement. I'm not making any immediate moves but I'm considering the options.

Space, I appreciate your input as well. You make some very good points!

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#132

Post by IT Troll » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:08 am

If you have Windows Pro/Enterprise/Education you can use Group Policy or Registry to permenantly disable automatic updates.

If you have Windows Home you can use the Windows Firewall to block certain processes from making a connection. There is also a metered connection trick but that only works on the more recent versions.

In both cases you still have the ability to selectively install specific updates should you wish.

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#133

Post by aeblank » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:22 am

As someone who has "rolled back" updates that removed WMC at least half a dozen times......stopping updates is hard.

I think I finally have it though. I think it was a regedit that finally did it.

If I could run windows 7 on that stick, I would. If I had it to do over, I'd probably find the cabinet space (in a camper) to run some super-small "desktop" PC and windows 7. Don't give a hoot about support.

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#134

Post by jazz_dude » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:51 pm

Of the various combinations of patched and unpatched, 7 vs 10, different versions etc above, I'd imagine Windows 10 with no updates is the worst of all scenarios. You're open to malware, WMC is a hassle and you have the ****ing tiles to contend with. Until EOL, Windows 7 with all recent updates would be more secure than Windows 10 that hadn't been updated for several years - and WMC doesn't need fixing every 6 months.

Even after EOL, the updated Windows 7 would be a better bet than an out of date Windows 10.

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#135

Post by IT Troll » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:09 pm

Windows 8.1 has extended support until 2023. However, if you don't already have one, it is tricky to get a Media Center key now.

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#136

Post by trs71 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 am

Is there any advantage to running windows 8.1 vs 7, besides 2023 support?

Honestly, I ran 7 WMC for years with no problems, but starting 2 years ago Problems started IDK why. Even complete reinstalls (or restored images) only fixed errors for a while, freezing or mainly losing the HDHomerun tuners, requiring a reboot of everything, but everything else on the PC ran great. Now with win 8.1 everything else is glitchy except for WMC...... go figure!

I played the hacked windows 10 game since the inception, untill the cable card demise update, all in all nothing but a PITA...

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#137

Post by trs71 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 am

Is there any advantage to running windows 8.1 vs 7, besides 2023 support?

Honestly, I ran 7 WMC for years with no problems, but starting 2 years ago Problems started IDK why. Even complete reinstalls (or restored images) only fixed errors for a while, freezing or mainly losing the HDHomerun tuners, requiring a reboot of everything, but everything else on the PC ran great. Now with win 8.1 everything else is glitchy except for WMC...... go figure!

I played the hacked windows 10 game since the inception, untill the cable card demise update, all in all nothing but a PITA...

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#138

Post by IT Troll » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:56 pm

trs71 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 am
Is there any advantage to running windows 8.1 vs 7, besides 2023 support?
Do you mean with regards to Media Center? If so, then not really. The built-in H.264 is newer/better, but then many people install third-party codecs anyway.

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#139

Post by DavidinCT » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:06 pm

trs71 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 am
Is there any advantage to running windows 8.1 vs 7, besides 2023 support?

Honestly, I ran 7 WMC for years with no problems, but starting 2 years ago Problems started IDK why. Even complete reinstalls (or restored images) only fixed errors for a while, freezing or mainly losing the HDHomerun tuners, requiring a reboot of everything, but everything else on the PC ran great. Now with win 8.1 everything else is glitchy except for WMC...... go figure!

I played the hacked windows 10 game since the inception, untill the cable card demise update, all in all nothing but a PITA...
I was one of the big guys asking for Windows 10 WMC and did many tests with it prior to the guys over at MDL hacking it. I followed it step by step till Cablecards died (I have a Ceton so it never worked once they died). WIndows 10 WMC is a novelty now. I cant watch TV with it, so it's just for some apps for testing.

IS 8.1 better than 7 in anyway ? No, not really. Although it MAY be possible to use a store app in WMC (all my experiance and trial no apps can be used with a remote) on 8.1, they actually disable features from Windows 7 (always on top and start WMC with Windows). Also 8.1 is far less popular than 7, so even driver support can be hit or miss on some items.

The 2023 thing, is about security updates, if your using the built in guide (ROVI), you might be good till 2023 or beyond with WIndows 7. Microsoft changed to ROVI, so it works with Winows 7, WIndows 8.1 and all other devices that use gudie data including the TV feature on the Xbox one. So it might even work after WIndows 8.1 is done... BUT, if Microsoft kills off that feature on the Xbox one, it might end sooner. I personally disable Windows update on my HTPC, because Microsoft no longer tests WMC with updates and it can and does break things time to time.


Note: If you DONT have a licence for 8.1 WMC, it's a PIA to get, so your better off sticking with 7. Just so you know, 8.1 WMC is the same exact thing and version, just modfied by Microsoft so it would work on 8.1. The cablecards died on WIndows 10 is because they changed the DRM subsystem and abandoned the old one, this killed other apps like Zune and some other DRM music websites (a lot of ticked off people). It was to go forward with DRM that supports 4K and newer protection.
-Dave
Twitter @TheCoolDave

Windows Media Center certified and WMC MVP 2010 - 2012

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#140

Post by jachin99 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:11 pm

I'm trying around with WMC 10 on build 1511 right now (because of the H264 improvements and framepacked 3D support) and once you get it up and running it's pretty stable. It's still a test at this point but I have been on it for about 2 weeks and I really like it. I still prefer WMC 7 but ten just looks a little better to me.

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