JRiver Media Center Kickstarter for Copy Once Support

[kmp14]

So i pledged my $$ and I hope jRiver makes it happen. That being said, I read that PercData thread on jRiver's forums and it makes me nervous about the complexities of getting good data in MC. I am considering leaving WMC precisely because the guide data is now bad (and because of no future), but if there are similar challenges with guide data in jRiver MC I am leary.....

[gsr]

So i pledged my $$ and I hope jRiver makes it happen. That being said, I read that PercData thread on jRiver's forums and it makes me nervous about the complexities of getting good data in MC. I am considering leaving WMC precisely because the guide data is now bad (and because of no future), but if there are similar challenges with guide data in jRiver MC I am leary.....

The main issue with guide data in general is reliability of the data itself. With a relatively small amount of effort, one can configure JRiver MC to import guide data from pretty much whatever source you desire, much more easily than one could do the same in WMC.

[Kieran]

I am highly averse to guide data setup. I tried to get several back-ends setup with XBMC back in 2011 or so, and just gave up; it was too complicated and never followed any of the "guides" out there that were supposed to walk you through it. That was when I discovered WMC. I had it up and running inside of 30 minutes, amazing. I then later ended up subscribing to HBO, so then had 2 reasons to use WMC: easy guide data setup and copy-once DRM ability.

I recently tried out J-River, and trust me it was as easy to set up as WMC. Their built-in implementation of mc2xml is super smooth and easy. From there, if you're unhappy with the Rovi data, you can explore other options, which while still easy to do, are a little more involved than the default "automated" mc2xml system. So far for me Rovi data have been acceptable.

[CoteRotie]

I recently tried out J-River, and trust me it was as easy to set up as WMC. Their built-in implementation of mc2xml is super smooth and easy. From there, if you're unhappy with the Rovi data, you can explore other options, which while still easy to do, are a little more involved than the default "automated" mc2xml system. So far for me Rovi data have been acceptable.

+1

[tzr916]

I already voted with my $$. I also voted $$ for SD but not even trying it because they don't support Ceton tuners.

I think J River would do much better if they explained on the Kickstarter page how extender solutions work with MC. My main question would be:

Can you run one main J River MC machine (one license), and then have cheap ($50-$100) Android/NUC boxes for Live Tv and playback of Recorded Tv on other Tv's on the local network?

[CoteRotie]

I just looked at the total in the Jriver kickstarter.

We should be ashamed as a community.

They have a solution that really can replace WMC:

I downloaded the trial, and it does pretty much everything that WMC can do. After just a short time playing with it I have observed the following:

1. Super easy to set up (despite claims to the contrary.)
2. Works with Ceton and Silicondust tuners (I have both, no problem, seamless support)
3. Has free guide data from Rovi (FREE, which was one of the complaints about Silicondust's project. There's no additional subscription cost here!)
4. If you don't like Rovi you can use other paid data from several providers.
5. Provides a GRID, which Silicondust apparently is not going to do. (And which is a cause of lots on whinging on the SD forums.)
5. Beautiful Theater View interface, very customizable. (Maybe a bit more clunky than WMC in some respects, but that's probably due to not being used to it.)
6. I think it has Blue Ray DVD support, but I haven't tried it yet. Could be wrong here, I don't remember.
7. NETFLIX with remote support from within the app with a 3rd party add on. Working great for me.
8. Works with my WMC remote right out of the box. (And my Logitech Harmony that controls all the other misc. crap I have hooked up.)
9. Works on Windows 10, and is well supported and documented.
10. I think it supports Linux and iOS (?)
11. Very stable so far, no crashes or unexplained weirdness.

They are so close to being the WMC replacement and yet are not receiving anywhere near the support that Silicondust got with their kickstarter.

I would strongly suggest downloading the trial and checking it out for yourself, and supporting the kickstarter if you agree.

Thanks,

John

[STC]

Speaking purely from the sidelines (I am copy free) it may be because the campaign is too late to the party. A lot of WMC users have moved on. Many that remain put their faith in SD. That doesn't leave much of an ashamed group left. The stats would support this.

I personally require what would almost be a plug and play whole home solution now that my family is expanding. I have little time for hobbies at the moment. WMC and extenders is the solution now but I'm ditching the old girl as soon as I can find the right replacement. Hopefully by next year.

[DavidinCT]

Speaking purely from the sidelines (I am copy free) it may be because the campaign is too late to the party. A lot of WMC users have moved on. Many that remain put their faith in SD. That doesn't leave much of an ashamed group left. The stats would support this.

I personally require what would almost be a plug and play whole home solution now that my family is expanding. I have little time for hobbies at the moment. WMC and extenders is the solution now but I'm ditching the old girl as soon as I can find the right replacement. Hopefully by next year.

I hear ya. I am wondering if it's too late. They should of jumped at this the MOMENT Microsoft said WMC is dead. The HDhomerun people have an idea but, from what I have seen and read, it's not going to be anything special, sure it will work with content but, they wont have a lot of basic features that WMC has, or even the basics on what people want in a DVR, never mind a media center HTPC computer...

As my family is growing as well and working a full time busy job, hobbies are left to the weekends and there is just so much other things to do, that I don't get the time that I used to have (or at least seemed like I had), I need it to just work.

WMC does a great job still, it does almost everything it did 3 years ago (accept for sports and Internet tv), still solid as a rock and very dependable if it's configured right. I would love to see something updated and I might move on.

JRiver might be it but, for what they are looking to get and the money needed to get it, sad to say, I don't forsee it happening. Maybe I should download a demo and try it but, it's the holidays, dumping $50+ into something (that might actually help), at this time of the year is not going to happen.

I do hope they hit their goal, it sounds like a interesting program but, time will tell...

[STC]

We are seeing a steady decline in visitors to this site.
The result of the guide provider swap caused a huge negative hit, although this is where JRiver could be an option for those members who threw the towel in, but again, perhaps too late.

The decline is to be completely expected, of course.

[3rob3]

A few thoughts on this:
HTPC's in general are declining, which is why Jriver Kickstarter isn't doing that great (IMHO). My replacement for Media Center will NOT be an HTPC unless it's just a server to "extenders" like Android TV's, similar to what I have now with all TVs fed by 360's. From what I have seen they have no extender solution.

Like most of you my current set up is rock solid and it will take a proven solution to get me to switch.

No way their Netflix solution is comparable to Xbox/Android TV. I am pretty sure its running that mouse emulation add-on from AVS forum. No thanks....

[JimH]

I just looked at the total in the Jriver kickstarter.

We should be ashamed as a community.

They have a solution that really can replace WMC:

I downloaded the trial, and it does pretty much everything that WMC can do.

....

They are so close to being the WMC replacement and yet are not receiving anywhere near the support that Silicondust got with their kickstarter.

I would strongly suggest downloading the trial and checking it out for yourself, and supporting the kickstarter if you agree.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Jim Hillegass
JRiver

[mdavej]

CoteRotie,

Please repost this at AVSForum as well. I think if the SD supporters realized how much closer JRiver already is to their ideal DVR solution, they might throw in their support.

[bob_p]

I agree with the comment above that if JRiver could clearly state how their environment will compare to WMC when they have DRM working, they should get more supporters.

Unfortunately, they are following the SD Kickstarter campaign - and because SD didn't provide enough information on what they planned to provide, there seems to be growing disappointment with their direction because it does NOT appear they will have something most WMC users will want to use.

JRiver provides a lot of information on their website and wiki pages - but there's too much - making it impossible for anyone to quickly do a JRiver MC to WMC comparison.

If they can answer some simple questions for WMC users - they should be able to get more supporters:

• For a WMC user with Xbox 360 extenders, what would the corresponding JMC configuration look like?
• Compared to WMC, what can or cannot be done using the 10 foot user interface (controllable by a media/programmable remote)?
• Compared to WMC, what can or cannot be done on the "extenders"?

It might also help if their video was focused more on WMC users - providing them assurances of how JMC has or will have the features they are looking for - and how they would migrate from their current configurations to JMC.

A major challenge for JRiver is the much larger number of supporters they will need compared to the SD campaign. Since SD bundled in hardware configurations, it made the amount of $$$ they collected seem much higher, but unless someone was donating that hardware to SD (unlikely), the actual funds raised by SD were much lower than what they received from Kickstarter. JRiver is asking only for $$$ to go to them, and because of that, they'll need a lot more people to hit their goal.

As of today, they've received 111 backers for only $5.5K - SD has almost 4K backers - and received $370K (though a large part of that was likely for hardware). Unless JRiver does something quickly to attract more WMC users, it appears they will miss their goal - by a lot.

HOWEVER, there may be a fallback position. Is there any possibility they could partner with SD and incorporate SD's new DVR components into JMC? That would provide DRM support for JMC users with SD tuners - those with Ceton tuners would still be stuck without DRM. Since SD is using their Kickstarter funds to solve the DRM problem - all JRiver should have to do was integrate SD's software into their product.

This would be a win-win for everyone (except Ceton). SD's Kickstarter supporters would get the WMC replacement they were looking for - if JRiver has the functionality (including a program guide grid) - and SiliconDust would have two options their customers could use for purchasing new SD tuners - SD's DVR "reimagined" (which could attract new customers) and JRiver's WMC replacement...

[gsr]

Keep in mind that I'm just a satisfied JRiver user (and a satisfied WMC user too) posting here. I don't work for JRiver.

For a WMC user with Xbox 360 extenders, what would the corresponding JMC configuration look like?

JRiver has indicated that they won't know exactly what sort of extender functionality will be able to work with Copy Once content. But aside from that, they have a fairly flexible extender model, but it relies on running the Windows, MacOS, or Linux version of JRiver Media Center in client mode. So you would have a main JRiver Media Center "server", just like you would with WMC. For Copy Once support, extenders are probably ideally running the Windows version of JRiver Media Center, as that's the best bet for them to get working - getting the required PlayReady support working on MacOS or Linux seems less likely. They do sell their own extender, called the ID, which is an Intel NUC, but I honestly don't know much about it beyond that and have no idea if it would be able to handle the support needed for Copy Once.

They also have an iOS / Android app called JRemote that can play content from the JRiver server either locally on the iOS / Android device or essentially remote control the JRiver server, or render the content to a detected DLNA renderer device (such as an Oppo BDP-10x bluray player, an AVR with DLNA renderer support such as most recent Denon models, etc.). What isn't available in JRemote at this time is the ability to manage TV recordings. You can setup a view to play content that has been recorded, but can't setup (useful) views for the guide, to see upcoming recordings, or manage recordings. I would hope that's something that's on their roadmap, but don't know if or when that may happen.

I was able to setup a view that shows data from the guide and the list of upcoming recordings, but JRemote doesn't realize what the views are for and just treat the entries as additional media. It's useful if you just want a very simplistic view of a list of upcoming recordings - you can see an info panel, but you can't do anything like cancel a recording, see a user friendly display of the channel number, etc. JRemote also thinks that the upcoming recordings are existing media that can be played. The guide is similar - you can see the data, but it's not presented in a useful manner at this time.

Compared to WMC, what can or cannot be done using the 10 foot user interface (controllable by a media/programmable remote)?

Initial setup of TV needs to be done outside the 10 foot user interface. Beyond that, most of the TV functionality is now available via the 10 foot user interface. There is some advanced series management functionality that can still only be accomplished with a keyboard and mouse outside of the 10 foot user interface. I started a thread on their forum listing some of the functionality that's missing in their 10 foot user interface and outlined some UI enhancements that I think would make the functionality easier to use (see the discussion in: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.p ... c=101578.0).

Compared to WMC, what can or cannot be done on the "extenders"?

For TV functionality, I don't believe JRiver imposes any limits on what can be done on the extenders (clients) versus what can be done on the main server. For functionality beyond TV, JRiver is VASTLY superior all around when compared to WMC, but I'm assuming we're focusing this discussion on TV functionality as that's clearly WMC's strong point.

A major challenge for JRiver is the much larger number of supporters they will need compared to the SD campaign. Since SD bundled in hardware configurations, it made the amount of $$$ they collected seem much higher, but unless someone was donating that hardware to SD (unlikely), the actual funds raised by SD were much lower than what they received from Kickstarter. JRiver is asking only for $$$ to go to them, and because of that, they'll need a lot more people to hit their goal.

As of today, they've received 111 backers for only $5.5K - SD has almost 4K backers - and received $370K (though a large part of that was likely for hardware). Unless JRiver does something quickly to attract more WMC users, it appears they will miss their goal - by a lot.

Agreed, the higher priced options SD had that included hardware made it a lot easier to raise larger sums of money. Other than "being a nice guy", there's really no incentive for existing JRiver customers to donate more than $20 to the campaign - and it would take a 5000 $20 contributions to reach $100k.

HOWEVER, there may be a fallback position. Is there any possibility they could partner with SD and incorporate SD's new DVR components into JMC? That would provide DRM support for JMC users with SD tuners - those with Ceton tuners would still be stuck without DRM. Since SD is using their Kickstarter funds to solve the DRM problem - all JRiver should have to do was integrate SD's software into their product.

This would be a win-win for everyone (except Ceton). SD's Kickstarter supporters would get the WMC replacement they were looking for - if JRiver has the functionality (including a program guide grid) - and SiliconDust would have two options their customers could use for purchasing new SD tuners - SD's DVR "reimagined" (which could attract new customers) and JRiver's WMC replacement...

Last I heard, SD had made absolutely no progress on the DRM portion of their project, or at least hasn't given any indication that they've started on that portion of the project. Their Kickstarter project was for the ENTIRE DVR solution, including the recording engine, the UI, whatever sort of extender functionality they're going to have, handling the DRM, and their "stretch" goals. I honestly don't think there's anything JRiver could integrate with here that would be useful at this time. I suppose it might be possible to somehow integrate SD's DRM support at some point, but I suspect not as that would have to be the most closed portion of their project.

Conversely, JRiver already has a recording engine. JRiver already has a UI. JRiver already has at least some extender support. JRiver doesn't have the Copy Once DRM support, and that's the sole feature they're seeking to fund with the Kickstarter.

[Mystic95Z]

This KS is not going to get anywhere near the 100k goal. JimH is this dead in the water if the KS doesn't get 100k?

[Kieran]

I suppose it might be possible to somehow integrate SD's DRM support at some point, but I suspect not as that would have to be the most closed portion of their project.

Conversely, JRiver already has a recording engine. JRiver already has a UI. JRiver already has at least some extender support. JRiver doesn't have the Copy Once DRM support, and that's the sole feature they're seeking to fund with the Kickstarter.

SD's solution for content protection is an implementation of DTCP/IP, not Playready licensing. I don't know the technical details of such a solution, but it may not be possible for JR to use "just" the DRM portion of SD's solution. Can anyone more familiar with this technology comment on this?

That said, I THINK that somewhere in some of the threads on the SD site, they indicated that their API will be made available for licensing to 3rd parties.

[gsr]

SD's solution for content protection is an implementation of DTCP/IP, not Playready licensing. I don't know the technical details of such a solution, but it may not be possible for JR to use "just" the DRM portion of SD's solution. Can anyone more familiar with this technology comment on this?

I know they're planning to use DTCP/IP, but I highly doubt JR could use just the DRM portion as the DRM most likely has to be more tightly integrated with the product. I may be wrong, but I believe the choice of using DTCP/IP is a big part of why Ceton's tuners aren't supported by SD's solution.

That said, I THINK that somewhere in some of the threads on the SD site, they indicated that their API will be made available for licensing to 3rd parties.

I believe they meant the API to their entire solution, perhaps minus whatever UI they end up implementing.

For now it's kind of a moot point as SD hasn't delivered anything for the DRM portion yet.

[Kieran]

SD's solution for content protection is an implementation of DTCP/IP, not Playready licensing. I don't know the technical details of such a solution, but it may not be possible for JR to use "just" the DRM portion of SD's solution. Can anyone more familiar with this technology comment on this?

I know they're planning to use DTCP/IP, but I highly doubt JR could use just the DRM portion as the DRM most likely has to be more tightly integrated with the product. I may be wrong, but I believe the choice of using DTCP/IP is a big part of why Ceton's tuners aren't supported by SD's solution.

This is just a WAG, but I'd say the reason Silicon Dust doesn't support Ceton tuners in their DVR software is because they are Silicon Dust and they are developing this software to work with their OWN tuners. Not to mention why would they want to support their biggest competitor in the HTPC tv tuner market?

[IownFIVEechos]

This is just a WAG, but I'd say the reason Silicon Dust doesn't support Ceton tuners in their DVR software is because they are Silicon Dust and they are developing this software to work with their OWN tuners. Not to mention why would they want to support their biggest competitor in the HTPC tv tuner market?

I think the hardware they use stores a lot of the tv guide into the actual tuner (images etc..)? Something like that. I think they would want more people on it. We know a lot of Ceton users are very stubborn ( I mean loyal ) and will stick with WMC for as long as they can opposed to buying new hardware. (again I know I know many have supported the project etc.. that own Ceton tuners). Point is why wouldn't they want the subscriptions from these users each year as well? They would love to have them on board I would think! But I am guessing too. But it looks like they are getting there IMHO.

Also if the JRiver supported Android devices as extender that would go A LONG way!

[IownFIVEechos]

On a side note. I am not sure what the JRiver slogan is, but I vote that it should be 'It's Magic' I like that. Good luck I supported it. But like many others fear it is not going to reach its numbers.