Xbox One to play select Xbox 360 games - Future extender?

Latest and Greatest in the world of Technology and/or Media Center.
User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

Xbox One to play select Xbox 360 games - Future extender?

#1

Post by STC » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:27 pm

By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#2

Post by Ed  » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:34 pm

STC wrote:WMC extender code maybe?

It has to be streaming them from the cloud; the XB1 HW is no where near powerful enough to run a 360 emulator. And teardowns show there isn't separate dedicated HW in it for backwards compatibility - like with the old PS3s.

Being it's streaming them from the cloud - the interface is gonna most likely be just box art that you click and start playing (either in its own app/section or alongside your XB1 games) - so I don't see how this would enable 360 WMC extender support.

Edit: it says natively - I'm still very much doubting that - or to their credit - they developed the most efficient emulator ever (and would be IMO very impressive - given how complex and unique the 360 hardware architecture is). And they do just show up in the games library, as I assumed. Still, don't see how it would enable WMC extender support. Something as simple as that would just come to the XB1 (if it did), there would be no need to emulate it. And as the article says - they aren't dumping you into a 360 to do this.
Last edited by Ed  on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
newfiend

Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:10 pm
Location: Earth

HTPC Specs: Show details

#3

Post by newfiend » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:56 pm

Ya sure about that Ed? http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-one- ... patibility

"Behind the scenes, Microsoft has built a full Xbox 360 emulator for its Xbox One console. "Xbox One Backward Compatibility is an Xbox 360 emulator that runs on Xbox One and is used to play Xbox 360 games."
newfiend~

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#4

Post by Ed  » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:57 pm

newfiend wrote:Ya sure about that Ed? http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-one- ... patibility

"Behind the scenes, Microsoft has built a full Xbox 360 emulator for its Xbox One console. "Xbox One Backward Compatibility is an Xbox 360 emulator that runs on Xbox One and is used to play Xbox 360 games."
newfiend~
Yes, see my edit I made at the same time as your post. While it wouldn't be impossible - I am very doubtful of any marketing/claims until it's in reviewers/the pubic's hands. And like i said - if they did - they honestly deserve a lot of credit for writing such a complex emulator for such unique hardware - and getting it to run so efficiently on the - not very/relatively powerful - XB1 HW. Also, another possibility - it's running recompiled (and obviously code modified slightly) games. I would see that as more of a stretch from cloud streaming - but more likely than actual emulation. It would also explain why only some titles are available and not all at launch.

Edit: Also, when you insert a disc - it doesn't play - just verifies it's a legit disc and then initiates a download. That's another sign it's not emulation - and more tweaked/recompiled games IMO. Emulation would be able to play the game off the disc.

Emulation is extremely, extremely difficult. Emulation of the unique 360 hardware only makes it all that more extreme - I just don't see the XB1 HW being possible of it. I don't even think moderns desktop computers could do it. It takes HW orders of magnitude more powerful than the original HW. If it ever comes to be (360 emulation) - I wouldn't expect top-end DESKTOP HW to be able to run it anywhere near smooth for a couple of generations at the least.

There's one 360 emulator in the works I know of - and it's still extremely buggy, only works with less than a handful of titles - and doesn't even render everything/render everything properly with those titles.

Again, if it is an actual full on emulator - I will give Microsoft all the props in the world for performing such a technological feat.
Last edited by Ed  on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#5

Post by STC » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:23 pm

I'm pretty sure extender code from the 360 ported to the One wouldn't have anything to do with whether it can emulate 360 games efficiently. We're not talking about frame rates for games, all it has to do is run the clunky three foot interface and play TV.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#6

Post by Ed  » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:26 pm

STC wrote:I'm pretty sure extender code from the 360 ported to the One wouldn't have anything to do with whether it can emulate 360 games efficiently. We're not talking about frame rates for games, all it has to do is run the clunky three foot interface and play TV.
No my point was for something as simple as the extender code/mode - emulation would be like taking an around the world flight just to go to the corner store. It would make much more sense to rewrite the code for that and have it as a native app/function - vs emulation.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#7

Post by STC » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:30 pm

^ But they say they've already written the emulator.

So, if they wanted they could run the extender GUI code via the emulator comfortably and tweak playback to work natively.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

User avatar
newfiend

Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:10 pm
Location: Earth

HTPC Specs: Show details

#8

Post by newfiend » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:37 pm

STC wrote:^ But they say they've already written the emulator.

So, if they wanted they could run the extender GUI code via the emulator comfortably and tweak playback to work natively.
But I don't see them doing this since they want Media Center Dead and Buried.

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#9

Post by Ed  » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:39 pm

STC wrote:^ But they say they've already written the emulator.

So, if they wanted they could run the extender code via the emulator and tweak playback to work natively.
Right- but let's assume it is a full-on emulator - just to even be sitting at the dashboard not doing anything - emulating that will be putting an enormous strain on the XB1 HW. We're talking extremely high power draw and CPU/GPU usage. I don't think MS would want that if they intended to emulate the extender functionality/app - for the length of time people tend to watch TV/watch WMC every day/week/month. That's how you kill hardware quickly. They don't want another RROD fiasco on their hands.

Now if it is modified code/recompiled games - sure, you could let the WMC extender 'app' run like that - but for something as simple as a WMC extender 'app' - vs a full-on game - it would make more sense to just rewrite the 'app' from scratch as a full-on native XB1 app - which leads to the best efficiency/functionality. Which they would't need any of this/the above for/to do if they were gonna bring it to the XB1.

Also, emulating the WMC part - but having playback natively - sounds to me like it would break the DRM chain that WMC relies/is based on. Plus, it would have to be always emulating everything in WMC (including video) - otherwise, how would it function when the guide or program data or main menu is overlayed over the playing video - if the video were native but the WMC emualted?
newfiend wrote:But I don't see them doing this since they want Media Center Dead and Buried.
Yeah, that's another factor in all this.

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#10

Post by Ed  » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:24 pm

Also, double-post, but for anyone more interested in emulation - this is a very good/interesting article I read a while back about a man's quest to create the perfect SNES emulator. It's a good read, and will give you an idea of some of the immense power needed emulate something perfectly/exactly. The 360s HW and architecture are so powerful and unique - that's why I doubt the XB1 HW could even emulate it 'shittily' < lol.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/a ... mulator/1/

Edit: I'm also hearing it might actually be emualting - but not the XBOX 360 HW - for the reasons I've given - it's actually emulating the game engines of the compatible games. If true - that's a pretty clever/ingenious work around - and immensely less resource intensive (but still resource intensive itself) than emualting an actual 360/the HW. That would also explain the 'native' playback spoken of. If you emulate the just game engine - then other game resources such as models and textures would be used 'natively'. That's pretty darn clever - but still would do nothing for WMC extender support.
Last edited by Ed  on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:14 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#11

Post by STC » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:37 pm

I sincerely doubt it will ever come to fruition but it is more possible now then it was before.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

Mpgrimm2

Posts: 81
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 9:00 am
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#12

Post by Mpgrimm2 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:31 am

Moderator Note: Posts merged from Windows 10 Topic

Well, here's a twist ...

Microsoft kills Kinect support in Xbox One's backward-compatibility push


So, MS is making the XboxOne backward compatible with the Xbox 360 games using an emulator (until they change their mind). Which no one expected.
Will they throw in extender support too?
Will they also revisit media center in win10?

Who knows, maybe this is a chip in the win10 eco system. I'm holding out hope but with out any expectation.

User avatar
DavidinCT

Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:45 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#13

Post by DavidinCT » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:19 pm

Mpgrimm2 wrote:Well, here's a twist ...

Microsoft kills Kinect support in Xbox One's backward-compatibility push


So, MS is making the XboxOne backward compatible with the Xbox 360 games using an emulator (until they change their mind). Which no one expected.
Will they throw in extender support too?
Will they also revisit media center in win10?

Who knows, maybe this is a chip in the win10 eco system. I'm holding out hope but with out any expectation.
The Xbox one's 360 compatibly is just a full Xbox 360 emulated. Think of it like installing VMware on your 8.1 desktop and running Windows 7 in a virtual machine. It's pretty much the same thing with some unity features. Screen capture and video capture should work, as your not capturing the game, your capturing the VM. The loss of Kinect is because of a USB problem on the VM'ed 360, now I believe it's possible but, I don't think they could of gotten the Xbox one's Kinect to work with 360 games, that would be the problem. Everyone would go up in arms if they enabled this feature as people would need 2 Kinects added to the Xbox one (the 360's and Xbox one's).

My big question is on the Xbox one's 360 games, if I have a party going with people I am playing a 360 game on, and someone on the Xbox one side wants to join my party, will they be able to join ? I think this was one of the more requested features than 360 compatibility (cross chat between 360 and x1 players).

I don't think this will change Microsoft's thought to WMC but, if someone could get the full 360 features working, a Media Center extender on a Xbox one, SHOULD be possible. I'm in the Preview program on the Xbox one, I will have to play with the options a little but, because of their standpoint on WMC, I bet they cut it right out.

They are emulating the 360, so if it's got the full package, it COULD be a Media Center Extender.....Could be..
-Dave
Twitter @TheCoolDave

Windows Media Center certified and WMC MVP 2010 - 2012

glugglug

Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:34 am
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#14

Post by glugglug » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:10 pm

DavidinCT wrote:
Mpgrimm2 wrote:Well, here's a twist ...

Microsoft kills Kinect support in Xbox One's backward-compatibility push


So, MS is making the XboxOne backward compatible with the Xbox 360 games using an emulator (until they change their mind). Which no one expected.
Will they throw in extender support too?
Will they also revisit media center in win10?

Who knows, maybe this is a chip in the win10 eco system. I'm holding out hope but with out any expectation.
Although this is going off topic a little bit but, I wanted to comment on this. The Xbox one's 360 compatibly is just a full Xbox 360 emulated. Think if it like installing VMware on your 8.1 desktop and running Windows 7 in a virtual machine. It's pretty much the same thing with some unity features. Screen capture and video capture should work, as your not capturing the game, your capturing the VM. The loss of Kinect is because of a USB problem on the VM'ed 360, now I believe it's possible but, I don't think they could of gotten the Xbox one's Kinect to work with 360 games, that would be the problem. Everyone would go up in arms if they enabled this feature as people would need 2 Kinects added to the Xbox one (the 360's and Xbox one's).

My big question is on the Xbox one's 360 games, if I have a party going with people I am playing a 360 game on, and someone on the Xbox one side wants to join my party, will they be able to join ? I think this was one of the more requested features than 360 compatibility (cross chat between 360 and x1 players).

I don't think this will change Microsoft's thought to WMC but, if someone could get the full 360 features working, a Media Center extender on a Xbox one, SHOULD be possible. I'm in the Preview program on the Xbox one, I will have to play with the options a little but, because of their standpoint on WMC, I bet they cut it right out.

They are emulating the 360, so if it's got the full package, it COULD be a Media Center Extender.....Could be..

They are NOT emulating the 360. It's a completely different CPU architecture, with more registers than the XBOne has natively, and the XBOne would need to be more than 10x faster to pull it off. Actually, going by Xbox360S design, it needs to be a bigger difference than that. The reason there was no improvement with later revisions of the 360 is they underclocked the newer chips and actually added a block to the new chip with integrated GPU to simulate the delays of communicating with it over an external bus to keep them the exact same speed so that people with a newer 360 don't have an advantage in gaming over older ones. To include delays and get the speed exact like this in an emulator, the XBOne probably needs to be several dozen times faster than the 360.

The recent announcement is support for certain specific games to have a shared license across both platforms. Games that already exist natively on the XB One.

User avatar
TheOsburnFamil

Posts: 322
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:52 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#15

Post by TheOsburnFamil » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:01 pm

glugglug wrote:
They are NOT emulating the 360. It's a completely different CPU architecture, with more registers than the XBOne has natively, and the XBOne would need to be more than 10x faster to pull it off. Actually, going by Xbox360S design, it needs to be a bigger difference than that. The reason there was no improvement with later revisions of the 360 is they underclocked the newer chips and actually added a block to the new chip with integrated GPU to simulate the delays of communicating with it over an external bus to keep them the exact same speed so that people with a newer 360 don't have an advantage in gaming over older ones. To include delays and get the speed exact like this in an emulator, the XBOne probably needs to be several dozen times faster than the 360.

The recent announcement is support for certain specific games to have a shared license across both platforms. Games that already exist natively on the XB One.
Respectfully disagree with you here...

Here's the pull quote: "“What we’ve done to make this happen—which we didn’t think was initially possible—was we built a virtual 360 entirely in software—and we take the old 360 games and put them in the emulator and we put them in emulation,” Bill Stillwell, from the Xbox Platform team, explained in a livestream Monday night."

This is coming straight from the Xbox Team and specifically says it's emulating the 360
Matt O. ...tivo what? ...dish dvr--uh... huh? ...cable dvr fees--you're kidding, right?

User avatar
DavidinCT

Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:45 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#16

Post by DavidinCT » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:25 pm

TheOsburnFamil wrote:
glugglug wrote:
They are NOT emulating the 360. It's a completely different CPU architecture, with more registers than the XBOne has natively, and the XBOne would need to be more than 10x faster to pull it off. Actually, going by Xbox360S design, it needs to be a bigger difference than that. The reason there was no improvement with later revisions of the 360 is they underclocked the Respectfully disagree with you here...
newer chips and actually added a block to the new chip with integrated GPU to simulate the delays of communicating with it over an external bus to keep them the exact same speed so that people with a newer 360 don't have an advantage in gaming over older ones. To include delays and get the speed exact like this in an emulator, the XBOne probably needs to be several dozen times faster than the 360.

The recent announcement is support for certain specific games to have a shared license across both platforms. Games that already exist natively on the XB One.
Here's the pull quote: "“What we’ve done to make this happen—which we didn’t think was initially possible—was we built a virtual 360 entirely in software—and we take the old 360 games and put them in the emulator and we put them in emulation,” Bill Stillwell, from the Xbox Platform team, explained in a livestream Monday night."

This is coming straight from the Xbox Team and specifically says it's emulating the 360
Right, pretty much what I said. It's more like a Virtual 360. The 360 and Xbox one have different CPUs, so natively the Xbox one would NOT be able to play 360 games back unless they re-compile them. So by creating a Virtual 360 they can emulate the CPU, so they can play back. This is the best way they can do it, each game would need to be tested in a case by case basis, and they would need to write a minor configuration file for it to address minor issues (like they said, if an approved game, they would download a patch or something for it)

We are going a little off topic, Mods if you want to move this last bit of chat to a new thread, I would be ok with it.
-Dave
Twitter @TheCoolDave

Windows Media Center certified and WMC MVP 2010 - 2012

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#17

Post by STC » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:31 pm

The 360 and One share similar GPU architecture. That would help rendering engines cross-platform.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

Ed 

Posts: 793
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#18

Post by Ed  » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:25 pm

STC wrote:The 360 and One share similar GPU architecture. That would help rendering engines cross-platform.
Not at all - though both designed by ATI - the 360s GPU is most like the X1000 series of desktop GPUs - while the GPU in the XBOX One is an APU. Not similar architectures in the least.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#19

Post by STC » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:00 pm

I read a piece from The Register who may have it wrong. I'll dig up the reference when I get home.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

LuckyDay

Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:42 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#20

Post by LuckyDay » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:50 pm

You're right that they are a different architecture, in that one GPU is contained within an APU, but the XBox One GPU is essentially a Radeon 8000. From a programming standpoint the GPU is accessed and used the same way, via DirectX.

The GPU is the least of the worries here though, as they're both fairly similar.

I agree with Ed's suspicions on how this is happening re: Emulation. The Xbox 360 uses a PowerPC CPU compared to an x86 for the Xbox One. If we were looking at x86 for both it would be entirely possible to assume the XBox One wouldn't even have to emulate, it could be made to just run the games in question.

Something isn't adding up. Clearly, the creators of the hardware have an advantage when it comes to emulating their own machines, but the Xbox One still shouldn't be capable of this.

Post Reply