Silicondust DVR Kickstarter

[bobitha]

A HORSE HAS HORSEPOWER, there is no other way to get around than a horse and buggy anywhere as efficient. My point is to say something the only way to do something because it's the only way YOU know, does not make it so. In the kids example I've found they know the names of every show they watch, I search for team umizoomi, there it is. I did not learn that george lopez show or any other adult show came on because of the grid style epg, I learned it because they announced on the channel they're watching. How can kids watch tv if I'm spending all the time scrolling through a grid. I do a search for the shows they watch see the time they come on and schedule it accordingly. Sometimes I record the shows on certain days they can watch them at specific times. Sometimes I use the TWC App on an android box and it does not have a grid style epg at all, in some ways its closer to the SD one, and I do a search, and there it is. Sounds like what would be better is a children s category like there is a sports category. There are a thousand ways to do things. I go through some of the same things you go I just try to have an open mind. I want to see the final guide style and submit ideas for improvement to have a better guide than a grid. I rarely if ever use a grid style epg, I don't even use the one in WMC, I get more information and faster online then scrolling through a Grid style guide. I find out about new shows search for them in WMC and schedule them to record. Add to that the number of channels in the grid are just too bulky.

Clearly you do not understand. My Grid guide takes me all of a few seconds to make a decision for channel to land them on. Your example i would have to come back into the room every half hour to pick a new show to watch. LoL seriously you really do not have an open mind if you believe your way of doing it is the best. My kids do not read yet not really anyway. And still i say a Grid EPG is most efficient because nothing else exists to provide the same exact information any better than a spreadsheet (again you dont comprehend this) Its not that i am not open minded hell im one of the bleeding edge guys who buys new technology knowing there will be issues (duh i invested in kickstarter for this project) Nothing you have said changes the FACT that a GRID EPG is the most efficient means to display all the current information traditional EPG...

Riddle me this. What can show me 400 channels whats on now whats on next whats on after that and so on more efficiently than a spreadsheet??? If you can answer that i will concede to your school of thinking (wont happen) I am not opposed to something different but it must provide the same information that the Grid EPG does... So far you cannot tell me anything better.

If you cannot understand what ive said there really is no point in talking to you because you are just not getting it through your head.

This isnt the only way i Know how to do this it is just the best way to do it. I could just channel surf them until i land on a channel why even bother looking whats on. I could randomly it numbers with no intent of repeating a number and see what comes up. Even if i land them on a show NOW that is acceptable there is no guarantee that in 2 or 3 hours i will have to go change the channel because they were watching something for adults. But whats this i hear? there is a way to know whats on in 3 hours? DO TELL! Its called a.......wait for it.............Grid Enhanced Program Guide............. Oooooo Fancy!

[GIJOE4LIFE]

A HORSE HAS HORSEPOWER, there is no other way to get around than a horse and buggy anywhere as efficient. My point is to say something the only way to do something because it's the only way YOU know, does not make it so. In the kids example I've found they know the names of every show they watch, I search for team umizoomi, there it is. I did not learn that george lopez show or any other adult show came on because of the grid style epg, I learned it because they announced on the channel they're watching. How can kids watch tv if I'm spending all the time scrolling through a grid. I do a search for the shows they watch see the time they come on and schedule it accordingly. Sometimes I record the shows on certain days they can watch them at specific times. Sometimes I use the TWC App on an android box and it does not have a grid style epg at all, in some ways its closer to the SD one, and I do a search, and there it is. Sounds like what would be better is a children s category like there is a sports category. There are a thousand ways to do things. I go through some of the same things you go I just try to have an open mind. I want to see the final guide style and submit ideas for improvement to have a better guide than a grid. I rarely if ever use a grid style epg, I don't even use the one in WMC, I get more information and faster online then scrolling through a Grid style guide. I find out about new shows search for them in WMC and schedule them to record. Add to that the number of channels in the grid are just too bulky.

Clearly you do not understand. My Grid guide takes me all of a few seconds to make a decision for channel to land them on. Your example i would have to come back into the room every half hour to pick a new show to watch. LoL seriously you really do not have an open mind if you believe your way of doing it is the best. My kids do not read yet not really anyway. And still i say a Grid EPG is most efficient because nothing else exists to provide the same exact information any better than a spreadsheet (again you dont comprehend this) Its not that i am not open minded heck im one of the bleeding edge guys who buys new technology knowing there will be issues (duh i invested in kickstarter for this project) Nothing you have said changes the FACT that a GRID EPG is the most efficient means to display all the current information traditional EPG...

Riddle me this. What can show me 400 channels whats on now whats on next whats on after that and so on more efficiently than a spreadsheet??? If you can answer that i will concede to your school of thinking (wont happen) I am not opposed to something different but it must provide the same information that the Grid EPG does... So far you cannot tell me anything better.

If you cannot understand what ive said there really is no point in talking to you because you are just not getting it through your head.

I do understand what you said, and I even like that you prejudge a say nothing else exits, to provide information better, because you have seen all ways to provide information so SD shouldn't even try. I can't unlike you say my way is the best way, I did not say that and never would, because I don't believe the best way is there yet. You tell me I don't comprehend when the style of argument I use is the same you use. Nothing I've said changes the facts, what facts. Is it because you say them they are facts or is there a class for it. Some believe perception is everything so, tell me if a guy is chased by squirrels, just because the squirrels think so does that make him a nut.

[bobitha]

I do understand what you said, and I even like that you prejudge a say nothing else exits, to provide information better, because you have seen all ways to provide information so SD shouldn't even try. I can't unlike you say my way is the best way, I did not say that and never would, because I don't believe the best way is there yet. You tell me I don't comprehend when the style of argument I use is the same you use. Nothing I've said changes the facts, what facts. Is it because you say them they are facts or is there a class for it. Some believe perception is everything so, tell me if a guy is chased by squirrels, just because the squirrels think so does that make him a nut.

See there you went again and completely missed it. First of all you say "yet" so clearly there is NO BETTER WAY. Its like saying i can travel to the future (because surely it will be possible in my life time) but to say it so definitively with such conviction on something that isnt even invented..... That would make you the guy the squirrel is chasing. What i say about a Grid epg being the most efficent being a fact is just because it is a fact is a fact because it has supporting data and cannot be disproven tangible data.

Until something more efficient is invented it will hold true that what i have said about Grid EPG being the most efficient means to display program guide data for all channels of what son now and next and future. You base your argument with me based on absolute pipe dreams, hopes, wants. I base mine off of what is already proven.


To be clear the Grid EPG isnt the only hindrance to this project so far. The Grid EPG should have been the next logical step prior to any "new" forms for finding shows to watch. If i wanted to have to look up my shows on TV Guide or some other website i wouldnt use this let down of a project...

I believe the only reason you are standing behind this project so firmly is you refuse to admit to yourself you got taken. You were played the fool. They have your money Nah Nah Na Boo Boo! Who the hell is going to run this program for pure dvr recordings when every other dvr already includes grid epg and records all the same. Oh because your with TWC and they said DRM is a goal.... ODD they havent been able to produce anything on that front yet but lets put that in your hope/wish basket.

Your logic is beyond flawed. Mine might not be the most 100% best Comp II argument but it still holds water while sailing freely above your sunken vessel you call a boat

[Ed]

Its like saying i can travel to the future (because surely it will be possible in my life time)

Technically, everyone has always been time travelling into the future at a rate of 1 second per second I just felt I needed to drop that truth bomb on everyone Carry on.

[bobitha]

Its like saying i can travel to the future (because surely it will be possible in my life time)

Technically, everyone has always been time travelling into the future at a rate of 1 second per second

The moment just before reaching the future it turns present the only way to concieve it as being the future is by looking at it from the past. Yesterday never was tomorrow will never be

[ajhieb]

See there you went again and completely missed it. First of all you say "yet" so clearly there is NO BETTER WAY. Its like saying i can travel to the future (because surely it will be possible in my life time) but to say it so definitively with such conviction on something that isnt even invented..... That would make you the guy the squirrel is chasing. What i say about a Grid epg being the most efficent being a fact is just because it is a fact is a fact because it has supporting data and cannot be disproven tangible data.

Well since the SD software hasn't been finalized, and as Nick has stated they aren't done designing the guides yet, I would say "yet" is a very relevant term to the conversation. You'[re basically stating that since the guide is the most effecient way you can think of for use scenraio that it is the most effecient way that anyone can think of for your usage scneario. That's a pretty bold claim. Of course for the purpose of this discussion talking about if anyone will ever do it is kinda pointless. talking about if SD specifically can do it be the tine the software is released is a very useful way to frame it.

now if you think that it's impossible for SD to come up with something as good or better, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't mistake that opinion as a fact.

Until something more efficient is invented it will hold true that what i have said about Grid EPG being the most efficient means to display program guide data for all channels of what son now and next and future. You base your argument with me based on absolute pipe dreams, hopes, wants. I base mine off of what is already proven.

but we're talking about software that isn't finished yet. What's the point of dwelling on what has been done if something new is about to come out? What's yet to be is very important in this discussion.

To be clear the Grid EPG isnt the only hindrance to this project so far. The Grid EPG should have been the next logical step prior to any "new" forms for finding shows to watch. If i wanted to have to look up my shows on TV Guide or some other website i wouldnt use this let down of a project...

That assumes that your use scenario is the primary target of SD. It's pretty clear it isn't.

I believe the only reason you are standing behind this project so firmly is you refuse to admit to yourself you got taken. You were played the fool. They have your money Nah Nah Na Boo Boo! Who the heck is going to run this program for pure dvr recordings when every other dvr already includes grid epg and records all the same. Oh because your with TWC and they said DRM is a goal.... ODD they havent been able to produce anything on that front yet but lets put that in your hope/wish basket.

You realize they are already recording DRM'ed content, right? That is a thing that is happening right noe. they also have been playing DRM'ed content long before this project already started. you know that, right? The reason they don't have DVR frontend working with DRM'ed content is because they released the Kodi frontend first (in order to cover more platforms for the initial release) which was never intended to support DRM'ed content. Nick has stated they will release a DRM capable frontend. ODD you ignore all of that in your rant.

Your logic is beyond flawed. Mine might not be the most 100% best Comp II argument but it still holds water while sailing freely above your sunken vessel you call a boat

holding water might be giving yourself a little too much credit. While you're not entirely wrong about everything, you're mostly wrong about a lot of it.

[bobitha]

Well since the SD software hasn't been finalized, and as Nick has stated they aren't done designing the guides yet, I would say "yet" is a very relevant term to the conversation. You'[re basically stating that since the guide is the most effecient way you can think of for use scenraio that it is the most effecient way that anyone can think of for your usage scneario. That's a pretty bold claim. Of course for the purpose of this discussion talking about if anyone will ever do it is kinda pointless. talking about if SD specifically can do it be the tine the software is released is a very useful way to frame it.

now if you think that it's impossible for SD to come up with something as good or better, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't mistake that opinion as a fact.

Again its not an opinion. How can you more efficiently represnt ALL the data found in a traditional Grid EPG and offer the same function? even AS efficiently, heck we will go for 95% efficiency. It doesnt exist because it is already deployed. The vehicle is a spreadsheet. Im not talking about usage im talking about DATA what is contained in a traditional Grid EPG, That data cannot be implemented in a more efficient manner to provide the same function it currently does.

You realize they are already recording DRM'ed content, right? That is a thing that is happening right noe. they also have been playing DRM'ed content long before this project already started. you know that, right? The reason they don't have DVR frontend working with DRM'ed content is because they released the Kodi frontend first (in order to cover more platforms for the initial release) which was never intended to support DRM'ed content. Nick has stated they will release a DRM capable frontend. ODD you ignore all of that in your rant.

Nope i live under a rock. SHOW ME. I will believe it when i see it, especially when it comes to SD. I know that Android has had the ability to view live DRM content for quite some time. Fully aware. But when it comes to everything else we'll see

That assumes that your use scenario is the primary target of SD. It's pretty clear it isn't.

My usage scenario is a DVR replacement for WMC. Pretty much what they told us it was going to be not in exact words but nothing they say is in exact words, its all beaten around the bush. They have not promised DRM content for DVR to be available for viewing, they said its a goal... ill take it as that. WMC replacement must be able to pause/rewind live tv, record once/new/all, go to last channel, have a traditional epg. These are the basic core functions of ANY DVR. Not saying everyone uses thes functions or uses their dvr the same but this is a standard. What if a new automobile manufacturer creates a replacement vehicle but comes with no engine or tires yet markets it as a new car ready to replace your old one... would be kind of a one off lie hmm?

[GIJOE4LIFE]

I do understand what you said, and I even like that you prejudge a say nothing else exits, to provide information better, because you have seen all ways to provide information so SD shouldn't even try. I can't unlike you say my way is the best way, I did not say that and never would, because I don't believe the best way is there yet. You tell me I don't comprehend when the style of argument I use is the same you use. Nothing I've said changes the facts, what facts. Is it because you say them they are facts or is there a class for it. Some believe perception is everything so, tell me if a guy is chased by squirrels, just because the squirrels think so does that make him a nut.

See there you went again and completely missed it. First of all you say "yet" so clearly there is NO BETTER WAY. Its like saying i can travel to the future (because surely it will be possible in my life time) but to say it so definitively with such conviction on something that isnt even invented..... That would make you the guy the squirrel is chasing. What i say about a Grid epg being the most efficent being a fact is just because it is a fact is a fact because it has supporting data and cannot be disproven tangible data.

Until something more efficient is invented it will hold true that what i have said about Grid EPG being the most efficient means to display program guide data for all channels of what son now and next and future. You base your argument with me based on absolute pipe dreams, hopes, wants. I base mine off of what is already proven.


To be clear the Grid EPG isnt the only hindrance to this project so far. The Grid EPG should have been the next logical step prior to any "new" forms for finding shows to watch. If i wanted to have to look up my shows on TV Guide or some other website i wouldnt use this let down of a project...

I believe the only reason you are standing behind this project so firmly is you refuse to admit to yourself you got taken. You were played the fool. They have your money Nah Nah Na Boo Boo! Who the heck is going to run this program for pure dvr recordings when every other dvr already includes grid epg and records all the same. Oh because your with TWC and they said DRM is a goal.... ODD they havent been able to produce anything on that front yet but lets put that in your hope/wish basket.

Your logic is beyond flawed. Mine might not be the most 100% best Comp II argument but it still holds water while sailing freely above your sunken vessel you call a boat

OK follow this, THE PROGRAM IS NOT COMPLETE YET. Another one of those pesky yets. Have you noticed that everything goes back to the grid epg for you. I want to see the final product, give input to make it better. In your mind anyone's logic that is not yours is flawed, only you and a few others have not been blinded by the light. I hope the project succeeds whether it has everything I want or not. I also hope, I don't remember who posted it, more people speak up. How can something better come along for you when you rail against, twist facts against anything except what you want And of anything that doesn't agree with your thinking is a pipe dream but only you and those who agree you know the facts. Of course you can travel to the future if you couldn't where would you go tomorrow?

Now about the money. I contributed to a kickstarter, never done it before but I did it based on what was on the kickstarter page. I did not see anywhere on that page anything about a grid style EPG. I don't feel taken, I did it for the project to succeed. I did not expect to get my money back, if they did not do what I demanded they do, Who in there right mind would do that? If your argument holds water, the water is sour, and any vessel in its right mind would sink, How do you think they make treasure ships?

[RyC]

You realize they are already recording DRM'ed content, right? That is a thing that is happening right noe. they also have been playing DRM'ed content long before this project already started. you know that, right? The reason they don't have DVR frontend working with DRM'ed content is because they released the Kodi frontend first (in order to cover more platforms for the initial release) which was never intended to support DRM'ed content. Nick has stated they will release a DRM capable frontend. ODD you ignore all of that in your rant.

Playing back live copy-protected content isn't the same as playing back recorded copy-protected content. I do trust Nick when he says it's coming, but that's something I'll believe when I see it myself. Personally, that's the single most important piece that they haven't proven yet (I'm patiently waiting though!)

Also, I was thinking about the whole "internet may be required to play back copy-protected content" thing Nick brought up. Perhaps one possibility that opens up is the transfer of the playback license to a different computer?

[GIJOE4LIFE]

You realize they are already recording DRM'ed content, right? That is a thing that is happening right noe. they also have been playing DRM'ed content long before this project already started. you know that, right? The reason they don't have DVR frontend working with DRM'ed content is because they released the Kodi frontend first (in order to cover more platforms for the initial release) which was never intended to support DRM'ed content. Nick has stated they will release a DRM capable frontend. ODD you ignore all of that in your rant.

Playing back live copy-protected content isn't the same as playing back recorded copy-protected content. I do trust Nick when he says it's coming, but that's something I'll believe when I see it myself. Personally, that's the single most important piece that they haven't proven yet (I'm patiently waiting though!)

Also, I was thinking about the whole "internet may be required to play back copy-protected content" thing Nick brought up. Perhaps one possibility that opens up is the transfer of the playback license to a different computer?

The internet thing is sticking with me also, I'm going to pay close attention to that when it comes out.

[ajhieb]

Again its not an opinion. How can you more efficiently represnt ALL the data found in a traditional Grid EPG and offer the same function? even AS efficiently, heck we will go for 95% efficiency. It doesnt exist because it is already deployed. The vehicle is a spreadsheet. Im not talking about usage im talking about DATA what is contained in a traditional Grid EPG, That data cannot be implemented in a more efficient manner to provide the same function it currently does.

Just because you believe it, doesn't make it a fact. If you'd like I can give you a long list of things that people claimed were impossible that are probably in your house somewhere. Now maybe SD will come up with something and maybe they won't but I'm not so arrogant as to claim its impossible just because I don't know how.

(And for the record, grids/spreadsheets aren't necessarily the most efficient way to store or present data. They're just one of the simplest to understand and easiest to implement)

Nope i live under a rock. SHOW ME. I will believe it when i see it, especially when it comes to SD. I know that Android has had the ability to view live DRM content for quite some time. Fully aware. But when it comes to everything else we'll see

That's great, but why bother to climb out from under your rock to claim what won't happen, what can't be done and various other prognostications based solely on your own opinion?

My usage scenario is a DVR replacement for WMC. Pretty much what they told us it was going to be not in exact words but nothing they say is in exact words, its all beaten around the bush. They have not promised DRM content for DVR to be available for viewing, they said its a goal... ill take it as that. WMC replacement must be able to pause/rewind live tv, record once/new/all, go to last channel, have a traditional epg. These are the basic core functions of ANY DVR. Not saying everyone uses thes functions or uses their dvr the same but this is a standard. What if a new automobile manufacturer creates a replacement vehicle but comes with no engine or tires yet markets it as a new car ready to replace your old one... would be kind of a one off lie hmm?

No, you're usage scenario is not "DVR replacement for WMC" That's your expectations. Your usage scenario is (possibly among other things) channel surfer, and it's pretty clear that is not the primary target at the moment. A much better car analogy would be if they said they were coming out with a new car and they released a Prius and you were disappointed because the only thing you'd ever driven was a Challenger. And Challengers are cool and no doubt plenty of people like them, but they don't really serve the same role as a Prius and aren't typically for the same people.

[bobitha]

OK follow this, THE PROGRAM IS NOT COMPLETE YET. Another one of those pesky yets. Have you noticed that everything goes back to the grid epg for you. I want to see the final product, give input to make it better. In your mind anyone's logic that is not yours is flawed, only you and a few others have not been blinded by the light. I hope the project succeeds whether it has everything I want or not. I also hope, I don't remember who posted it, more people speak up. How can something better come along for you when you rail against, twist facts against anything except what you want And of anything that doesn't agree with your thinking is a pipe dream but only you and those who agree you know the facts. Of course you can travel to the future if you couldn't where would you go tomorrow?

Now about the money. I contributed to a kickstarter, never done it before but I did it based on what was on the kickstarter page. I did not see anywhere on that page anything about a grid style EPG. I don't feel taken, I did it for the project to succeed. I did not expect to get my money back, if they did not do what I demanded they do, Who in there right mind would do that? If your argument holds water, the water is sour, and any vessel in its right mind would sink, How do you think they make treasure ships?

Here you go again, You are the one who said in the first place a Grid EPG isnt important and that there is a better way to do it. You are the one who was attacking those who wish to see the project succeed by implementing BASIC CORE DVR FUNCTION!

I want nothing more than to see this project prove me wrong. If you has asked me when I first read about this on april 20th i would have told you HELL YES they will be making this awesome. All impressions were that this would be better than WMC or at least provide all the core function and then some. DRM for me is a "meh" feature, only my premium channels are drm and i can watch other ways. Would it be nice to not have to YES.

You are the one who is SOOOO opposed to implementing FUNCTION that already exists on ALL DVR's. I am not saying dont put any other function or remove what they have done fut FFS they should have started with the basics. Clearly you dont get that. And i keep going back to Grid EPG because you keep saying that something else can do the same thing without being a grid guide... if that were possible it would be done by now.

YET yes this project is not done YET and even though we are 50% of the way through Their time line we are not much closer to the end goal than we were a while ago as far as core function goes.

I brought up all the main points of a DVR not just EPG btw so no its not all about Grid EPG. SD has failed to address its people in their own forums, i have reported many bugs. I have seen many people report issues/problems and SD simply ignores them. What confidence does SD deserve when they cant even respond in their own forums to people who have already paid the money, instead they come here to try and put out fires they started by being shmucks?

All my comments are on the current state and what behavior SD and their staff have displayed. If you had asked me back in April i would have been just as optimistic as you more so even. I just dont see it. Its ok i lost 60 bucks not a big deal.... there is still a chance they can redeem theirselves and having people try to say that missing features are "not important" are the sour water.

Back to the addage id rather have more features and not need them than need them and not have them.... Just because there is a Grid EPG doesnt mean you HAVE TO USE IT but why the hell wouldnt you want it if you know its possible.... Why not accommodate for anybody/everyone who might stop by your house be able to pick up the remote hit the guide button and navigate all the same... when they ask you can show them the other features and they might say cool... if they pick up the remote now they would be like wtf is this jankity crackerjack box crap you are running.... not intuitive in the least very clunkly marginally better than just using it as DLNA for viewing live tv...

CLEARLY YOU DONT GET IT... Im advocating more features (ones that should have been there from the start) and you are advocating complacency get what you get and be happy with it communist mentality.

I am a capitalist and i enjoy it very much so. I will not be happy with something because part of it works i want it all even the crap i will never use i want it ALL!!!

Now get over yourself. This project is a fail even if 50% of people are ok without a Grid EPG (will never amount to that) it will be a gigantic fail

[bobitha]

Again its not an opinion. How can you more efficiently represnt ALL the data found in a traditional Grid EPG and offer the same function? even AS efficiently, heck we will go for 95% efficiency. It doesnt exist because it is already deployed. The vehicle is a spreadsheet. Im not talking about usage im talking about DATA what is contained in a traditional Grid EPG, That data cannot be implemented in a more efficient manner to provide the same function it currently does.

Just because you believe it, doesn't make it a fact. If you'd like I can give you a long list of things that people claimed were impossible that are probably in your house somewhere. Now maybe SD will come up with something and maybe they won't but I'm not so arrogant as to claim its impossible just because I don't know how.

(And for the record, grids/spreadsheets aren't necessarily the most efficient way to store or present data. They're just one of the simplest to understand and easiest to implement)

Nope i live under a rock. SHOW ME. I will believe it when i see it, especially when it comes to SD. I know that Android has had the ability to view live DRM content for quite some time. Fully aware. But when it comes to everything else we'll see

That's great, but why bother to climb out from under your rock to claim what won't happen, what can't be done and various other prognostications based solely on your own opinion?

My usage scenario is a DVR replacement for WMC. Pretty much what they told us it was going to be not in exact words but nothing they say is in exact words, its all beaten around the bush. They have not promised DRM content for DVR to be available for viewing, they said its a goal... ill take it as that. WMC replacement must be able to pause/rewind live tv, record once/new/all, go to last channel, have a traditional epg. These are the basic core functions of ANY DVR. Not saying everyone uses thes functions or uses their dvr the same but this is a standard. What if a new automobile manufacturer creates a replacement vehicle but comes with no engine or tires yet markets it as a new car ready to replace your old one... would be kind of a one off lie hmm?

No, you're usage scenario is not "DVR replacement for WMC" That's your expectations. Your usage scenario is (possibly among other things) channel surfer, and it's pretty clear that is not the primary target at the moment. A much better car analogy would be if they said they were coming out with a new car and they released a Prius and you were disappointed because the only thing you'd ever driven was a Challenger. And Challengers are cool and no doubt plenty of people like them, but they don't really serve the same role as a Prius and aren't typically for the same people.

Again Because you clearly arent receiving it. Show me how to view 400 channels for the next 12 hours of what is on.... that is an epg grid guide... tell me how to get that exact same function as efficiently? and in this case YES a spreadsheet is the best representation of that data.... sure you could have a guide that had a bunch of channel logos and pie charts for current viewers of all the sd customers. You coul dhave it where its a wheel of options not up and down but left to right and it spins around the channel and under it just shows the rating of whats on.... still not going to give you the same information and wont do it as efficiently as being able to look at 10-12 channels at a time for 3-6 hours at a time in one shot.... this isnt so because i say it is... it is so because it just is............ Name me ONE WAY to more efficiently view this data.... You say it is possible yet make no claims.... argue with me for the sake of arguing i dont care but at least back up your claims some how...........The only way it could be any better is if there was a telepathic link where i could download all the contents of the guide directly to my head and i could think about a genre or channel and know what is on hell not even think about it just know instinctually THATS IT thats what they are doing!!! Great Scott we figured it out!!!!! GO GET DOC BROWN!

[dejavux2]

Wow....

Where to start?

Questions asked by the community to SD:
The fact that questions/posts are being removed/deleted by SD is NOT COOL. There's no denying that it happed. We all saw it. And then to come on here and say that they are building what the community is asking for, is pure crap. The Grid EPG was very high on the 'what the community is asking for' list, until SD started removing/deleting things. That is not good PR for this company. If they are allowing certain someone's to control 'what the community is asking for', then they only have hurt themselves and their reputation.

Picture EPG:
This may work for some users, but to say it will work for the majority of users is laughable. I've helped set up 23 homes (yes 23) with WMC and Ceton Tuners, with some using XBox360 as Extenders. I've talked to all 23 homes about this 'Picture EPG', and all have said it was not good. There are so many questions from them about this 'Picture Grid' that cannot be answered. There are many ways that the current Grid EPG is used in all of these homes. And I find that this is the beauty of the Grid EPG. It's very user-friendly, and can be used in many ways.

Tuners:
Like I said above, I helped set up 23 homes with WMC, Ceton Tuners and XBox360's. Myself included will be 24. That's 24 homes that would have to change their hardware just to use what SD is creating. I understand that it's SD creating the software, and that they would (of course) want this to work with their hardware. But, to exclude other hardware is keeping them from getting into more homes. Some of the homes may be able to change hardware, but not all.

Grid EPG vs. Picture EPG:
There are many things done now with the Grid EPG, that I don't see being able to do with a Picture EPG. What if users want to watch old shows, that will never show up as New in the guide? Yes, I know you can search for them, but the beauty of a Grid EPG makes them visible without having to search. Here's another example: Pull up the guide in WMC. Scroll down to a channel, any channel. Push the left arrow and highlight the channel, then hit OK... You now have a list of everything that will be showing on that channel. How would you do this with a Picture EPG? The Picture EPG seems to ignore 'channels' and seems to prefer shows. I know that some will say that SD is not done yet. And from reading some of Nick's responses, sounds like there will be many incarnations of the guide. My input: why would I want 'many' guides to take the place on 'one' guide? It sounds like, if you want to see these items, use this guide....if you want to see those items, use that guide.... This is not going to appeal to the masses.

My final opinion is that this is going not going to work for the masses. It's going to kill the WAF. My kids may learn to deal with it, but there is NO WAY my grandparents are going to be able to deal with it (they are #4 in the list of 24 homes). I've shown what SD is doing to the 24 homes, and the conclusion is that it will just not work.

I'm not trying to start any arguments with this post, and I will not respond to any arguments with this post. The above is the opinion that I have formed by explaining, questioning and listening to 24 homes that currently use WMC.

Thank you....

[bobitha]

Wow....

Where to start?

Questions asked by the community to SD:
The fact that questions/posts are being removed/deleted by SD is NOT COOL. There's no denying that it happed. We all saw it. And then to come on here and say that they are building what the community is asking for, is pure crap. The Grid EPG was very high on the 'what the community is asking for' list, until SD started removing/deleting things. That is not good PR for this company. If they are allowing certain someone's to control 'what the community is asking for', then they only have hurt themselves and their reputation.

Picture EPG:
This may work for some users, but to say it will work for the majority of users is laughable. I've helped set up 23 homes (yes 23) with WMC and Ceton Tuners, with some using XBox360 as Extenders. I've talked to all 23 homes about this 'Picture EPG', and all have said it was not good. There are so many questions from them about this 'Picture Grid' that cannot be answered. There are many ways that the current Grid EPG is used in all of these homes. And I find that this is the beauty of the Grid EPG. It's very user-friendly, and can be used in many ways.

Tuners:
Like I said above, I helped set up 23 homes with WMC, Ceton Tuners and XBox360's. Myself included will be 24. That's 24 homes that would have to change their hardware just to use what SD is creating. I understand that it's SD creating the software, and that they would (of course) want this to work with their hardware. But, to exclude other hardware is keeping them from getting into more homes. Some of the homes may be able to change hardware, but not all.

Grid EPG vs. Picture EPG:
There are many things done now with the Grid EPG, that I don't see being able to do with a Picture EPG. What if users want to watch old shows, that will never show up as New in the guide? Yes, I know you can search for them, but the beauty of a Grid EPG makes them visible without having to search. Here's another example: Pull up the guide in WMC. Scroll down to a channel, any channel. Push the left arrow and highlight the channel, then hit OK... You now have a list of everything that will be showing on that channel. How would you do this with a Picture EPG? The Picture EPG seems to ignore 'channels' and seems to prefer shows. I know that some will say that SD is not done yet. And from reading some of Nick's responses, sounds like there will be many incarnations of the guide. My input: why would I want 'many' guides to take the place on 'one' guide? It sounds like, if you want to see these items, use this guide....if you want to see those items, use that guide.... This is not going to appeal to the masses.

My final opinion is that this is going not going to work for the masses. It's going to kill the WAF. My kids may learn to deal with it, but there is NO WAY my grandparents are going to be able to deal with it (they are #4 in the list of 24 homes). I've shown what SD is doing to the 24 homes, and the conclusion is that it will just not work.

I'm not trying to start any arguments with this post, and I will not respond to any arguments with this post. The above is the opinion that I have formed by explaining, questioning and listening to 24 homes that currently use WMC.

Thank you....

Well said, i cannot dispute a single thing.

[ajhieb]

Again Because you clearly arent receiving it. Show me how to view 400 channels for the next 12 hours of what is on.... that is an epg grid guide... tell me how to get that exact same function as efficiently? and in this case YES a spreadsheet is the best representation of that data.... sure you could have a guide that had a bunch of channel logos and pie charts for current viewers of all the sd customers. You coul dhave it where its a wheel of options not up and down but left to right and it spins around the channel and under it just shows the rating of whats on.... still not going to give you the same information and wont do it as efficiently as being able to look at 10-12 channels at a time for 3-6 hours at a time in one shot.... this isnt so because i say it is... it is so because it just is............ Name me ONE WAY to more efficiently view this data.... You say it is possible yet make no claims.... argue with me for the sake of arguing i dont care but at least back up your claims some how...........The only way it could be any better is if there was a telepathic link where i could download all the contents of the guide directly to my head and i could think about a genre or channel and know what is on heck not even think about it just know instinctually THATS IT thats what they are doing!!! Great Scott we figured it out!!!!! GO GET DOC BROWN!

Let's be clear... you've backed up your assertion with absolutely nothing but your opinion. So before you get up on your high horse remember that you've brought jack squat in terms of facts to this discussion.

That said, my position is a hypothetical one. I'm saying that it is possible for someone to come up with a more efficient way of displaying channel data than a grid. i'm not saying that I have done it, that someone else has done it, that someone else will do it or that it is an inevitability. I'm saying that the possibility exists that a more efficient EPG could be designed, and that there is yet a possibility that SD could be the ones to design it.

I'm just curious how much experience you have with interface design? none I suspect. How much time did you devote to thinking of an alternative for the grid? Five, maybe six minutes tops? I have to say, I'm glad you aren't in charge of any sort of innovations because if you were, I'd probably be "writing" this post on punchcards.

[bobitha]

Let's be clear... you've backed up your assertion with absolutely nothing but your opinion. So before you get up on your high horse remember that you've brought jack squat in terms of facts to this discussion.

Google it there are rules set forth for displaying information properly. since this is typically done in fields of science/math that will point you in the right direction.

That said, my position is a hypothetical one. I'm saying that it is possible for someone to come up with a more efficient way of displaying channel data than a grid.

Again you dont get it, im not talking about one channel but all channels at once. Providing the same function the current Grid EPG does.

i'm not saying that I have done it, that someone else has done it, that someone else will do it or that it is an inevitability. I'm saying that the possibility exists that a more efficient EPG could be designed, and that there is yet a possibility that SD could be the ones to design it.

i could eat a butterfly and poop rainbows in this same world you are speaking from

I'm just curious how much experience you have with interface design? none I suspect. How much time did you devote to thinking of an alternative for the grid? Five, maybe six minutes tops? I have to say, I'm glad you aren't in charge of any sort of innovations because if you were, I'd probably be "writing" this post on punchcards.

wrote my first gui when i was 14 in '97 to interact with a game.

[ajhieb]

Here you go again, You are the one who said in the first place a Grid EPG isnt important and that there is a better way to do it. You are the one who was attacking those who wish to see the project succeed by implementing BASIC CORE DVR FUNCTION!

If I'm not mistaken he said that the grid EPG wasn't important to him and that some of the other guides that SD is including will be better for him. How you could possibly argue against that I have no idea unless you are the same person posting under two different accounts. Unless you are him you can't really say what is subjectively better for him.

I want nothing more than to see this project prove me wrong. If you has asked me when I first read about this on april 20th i would have told you heck YES they will be making this awesome. All impressions were that this would be better than WMC or at least provide all the core function and then some. DRM for me is a "meh" feature, only my premium channels are drm and i can watch other ways. Would it be nice to not have to YES.

"I want them to prove me wrong" seems like a common sentiment from the "we want a grd" crowd, yet at every step these people seem determined to undermine the project now at every opportunity. Call me a skeptic, but I'm not sure I believe all of the "I want it to succeed" talk from the nay-sayers.

You are the one who is SOOOO opposed to implementing FUNCTION that already exists on ALL DVR's. I am not saying dont put any other function or remove what they have done fut FFS they should have started with the basics. Clearly you dont get that. And i keep going back to Grid EPG because you keep saying that something else can do the same thing without being a grid guide... if that were possible it would be done by now.

Where did he ever say that he didn't want that functionality implemented. I do believe you are just making things up now. And do I really need to tell you all the things wrong with the "if it were possible..." comment?

YET yes this project is not done YET and even though we are 50% of the way through Their time line we are not much closer to the end goal than we were a while ago as far as core function goes.

I'm over halfway through my life expectancy, but I'm not much older today than I was yesterday. What's your point?

I brought up all the main points of a DVR not just EPG btw so no its not all about Grid EPG. SD has failed to address its people in their own forums, i have reported many bugs. I have seen many people report issues/problems and SD simply ignores them. What confidence does SD deserve when they cant even respond in their own forums to people who have already paid the money, instead they come here to try and put out fires they started by being shmucks?

Yes. That sounds like a guy who genuinely wants them to succeed.

All my comments are on the current state and what behavior SD and their staff have displayed. If you had asked me back in April i would have been just as optimistic as you more so even. I just dont see it. Its ok i lost 60 bucks not a big deal.... there is still a chance they can redeem theirselves and having people try to say that missing features are "not important" are the sour water.

Importance will vary from person to person. Someone who thinks a grid isn't that important has just as much a right to express their opinion as you do.

Back to the addage id rather have more features and not need them than need them and not have them.... Just because there is a Grid EPG doesnt mean you HAVE TO USE IT but why the heck wouldnt you want it if you know its possible.... Why not accommodate for anybody/everyone who might stop by your house be able to pick up the remote hit the guide button and navigate all the same... when they ask you can show them the other features and they might say cool... if they pick up the remote now they would be like what the heck is this jankity crackerjack box crap you are running.... not intuitive in the least very clunkly marginally better than just using it as DLNA for viewing live tv...

You just love throwing up that strawman don't you? I haven't seen a single person on here, at SD, or AVS who is opposed to additional features. Just because someone says a feature isn't important to them doesn't mean they are opposed to adding it. And it's pretty clear at this point your understanding of software development is below measurable limits. Very rarely does the first release of software have every possible feature in it. Most of the time the features included initially are a mix of things the designers think will have the most broad appeal, and the things that are easiest to implement (usually both) Accommodating for everyone is a pipe dream.

CLEARLY YOU DONT GET IT... Im advocating more features (ones that should have been there from the start) and you are advocating complacency get what you get and be happy with it communist mentality.

Actually it seems you don't get it. nobody is advocating complacency.

I am a capitalist and i enjoy it very much so. I will not be happy with something because part of it works i want it all even the crap i will never use i want it ALL!!!

Now get over yourself. This project is a fail even if 50% of people are ok without a Grid EPG (will never amount to that) it will be a gigantic fail

See above comment with regards to your knowledge of software development.

[GIJOE4LIFE]

OK follow this, THE PROGRAM IS NOT COMPLETE YET. Another one of those pesky yets. Have you noticed that everything goes back to the grid epg for you. I want to see the final product, give input to make it better. In your mind anyone's logic that is not yours is flawed, only you and a few others have not been blinded by the light. I hope the project succeeds whether it has everything I want or not. I also hope, I don't remember who posted it, more people speak up. How can something better come along for you when you rail against, twist facts against anything except what you want And of anything that doesn't agree with your thinking is a pipe dream but only you and those who agree you know the facts. Of course you can travel to the future if you couldn't where would you go tomorrow?

Now about the money. I contributed to a kickstarter, never done it before but I did it based on what was on the kickstarter page. I did not see anywhere on that page anything about a grid style EPG. I don't feel taken, I did it for the project to succeed. I did not expect to get my money back, if they did not do what I demanded they do, Who in there right mind would do that? If your argument holds water, the water is sour, and any vessel in its right mind would sink, How do you think they make treasure ships?

Here you go again, You are the one who said in the first place a Grid EPG isnt important and that there is a better way to do it. You are the one who was attacking those who wish to see the project succeed by implementing BASIC CORE DVR FUNCTION!

I want nothing more than to see this project prove me wrong. If you has asked me when I first read about this on april 20th i would have told you heck YES they will be making this awesome. All impressions were that this would be better than WMC or at least provide all the core function and then some. DRM for me is a "meh" feature, only my premium channels are drm and i can watch other ways. Would it be nice to not have to YES.


You are the one who is SOOOO opposed to implementing FUNCTION that already exists on ALL DVR's. I am not saying dont put any other function or remove what they have done fut FFS they should have started with the basics. Clearly you dont get that. And i keep going back to Grid EPG because you keep saying that something else can do the same thing without being a grid guide... if that were possible it would be done by now.

YET yes this project is not done YET and even though we are 50% of the way through Their time line we are not much closer to the end goal than we were a while ago as far as core function goes.

I brought up all the main points of a DVR not just EPG btw so no its not all about Grid EPG. SD has failed to address its people in their own forums, i have reported many bugs. I have seen many people report issues/problems and SD simply ignores them. What confidence does SD deserve when they cant even respond in their own forums to people who have already paid the money, instead they come here to try and put out fires they started by being shmucks?

All my comments are on the current state and what behavior SD and their staff have displayed. If you had asked me back in April i would have been just as optimistic as you more so even. I just dont see it. Its ok i lost 60 bucks not a big deal.... there is still a chance they can redeem theirselves and having people try to say that missing features are "not important" are the sour water.

Back to the addage id rather have more features and not need them than need them and not have them.... Just because there is a Grid EPG doesnt mean you HAVE TO USE IT but why the heck wouldnt you want it if you know its possible.... Why not accommodate for anybody/everyone who might stop by your house be able to pick up the remote hit the guide button and navigate all the same... when they ask you can show them the other features and they might say cool... if they pick up the remote now they would be like what the heck is this jankity crackerjack box crap you are running.... not intuitive in the least very clunkly marginally better than just using it as DLNA for viewing live tv...

CLEARLY YOU DONT GET IT... Im advocating more features (ones that should have been there from the start) and you are advocating complacency get what you get and be happy with it communist mentality.

I am a capitalist and i enjoy it very much so. I will not be happy with something because part of it works i want it all even the crap i will never use i want it ALL!!!

Now get over yourself. This project is a fail even if 50% of people are ok without a Grid EPG (will never amount to that) it will be a gigantic fail

1)I didn't say that, I said the grid epg is not the best way to display data. I believe SD is trying for something better and want to see what it is. But then again, Of course the grid epg isn't important to me. The multiple clients are, DRM, MPEG-2.

2)Of course you want the project to succeed, everyone can tell that by your post.

3)I'm not just opposed, I want something better and am willing to let them try.

4)All of your comments seem to be based on what is only important to you, which I understand but you and a few others always try to turn everything sinister. And because they did not do what you wanted them to do you trash everything they do.

5)Yes lets use that addage, what if the more features replaced the grid epg and was better.......Just because there is no grid epg doesn't mean
you have to have one. Trashing an entire project for selfish reasons is wrong, its not your project and the project was not promoted as a grid style epg, it promoted as a DVR, and I''m willing to wait to see the end product.

6)And here we go again twisting because you are always right. How is trying something new complacency, isn't complacency screaming for the same oh same oh.

7)Yet you are trying to kill a capitalist project.

8)You know this because of the DVR software you created and the inside information you have with SD of course, and because anything you attack just can't succeed, you are always right.

[ajhieb]

Google it there are rules set forth for displaying information properly. since this is typically done in fields of science/math that will point you in the right direction.

You google it. i'm not doing your work for you.

Again you dont get it, im not talking about one channel but all channels at once. Providing the same function the current Grid EPG does.

Yes, I know what you're talking about. you simply want a a grid because you want a grid. You're convinced a grid is irreplaceable because you've never used anything else.

BTW, last I checked, I've never seen an EPG grid that displays 400 channels of data at once. If yours does, you must have amazing vision.

i could eat a butterfly and poop rainbows in this same world you are speaking from

I can give reasons why eating a butterfly will not result in you pooping a rainbow. so far you've been utterly unable to provide anything meaningful as to why it's impossible to create a better EPG.

wrote my first gui when i was 14 in '97 to interact with a game.

How many grids did it have?