So now what? Move on?

[barnabas1969]

OK, wow... this site has exploded since Ceton announced their failure to implement Android on the Echo. Yes, it's difficult to understand how any (reputable) company could go so long without a firmware update to a (new) product to fix existing bugs, and then FINALLY update us with the news that they cannot go forward with their Android ambitions. But...

Now, let's put a little reality back in to the mix...

Our extenders will continue to work indefinitely. Yes, we will eventually need guide data from some source other than Microsoft. But... if your extender works reliably to play live/recorded TV today, then you can expect that to continue.

The XBox 360 will continue to be produced and sold at least for the next few years. That means that for the next few years, you will still be able to buy a BRAND NEW extender, even if the Echo disappears from the market.

Does the Windows Media Center extender play every audio/video format known to man? No. It never will. We know that now, based on Ceton's revelation. But, if your extender (regardless of brand/model) plays live/recorded TV reliably today, then you can expect it to keep doing that until the hardware eventually dies... which could be more than a decade from now, depending on the brand/model of extender that you own (some have higher failure rates than others).

EDIT: I forgot to mention the possibility that our cable companies will move channels to H.264 (MPEG-4), and that some extenders don't support it very well. In that case... buy an XBox360. You'll be certain that it will handle MPEG-4 from the cable company. In my experience, the HP X280N handles Bluray movies (that are ripped to MPEG-4 in a WTV container at a bit rate of 15-18Mbps) better than the Linksys AND Ceton extenders, but I do not have any cable channels with which to test it. I would appreciate it if anyone could upload some MPEG-4 recordings that are not copy-protected with which to test.

Good thing I was only drinking water. I just spit it all over my office when I read that one of the new partner's that joined with Ceton is Freescale. I'm not sure I even understand what this technology is, but it sounds like it's supposed to be something like HDBaseT. Seeing as their network tuner is flaky and their extender technology doesn't work as it should, I'm going to guess they will benefit more from this alliance than they'll contribute.

Many of you have derided me for bashing Ceton, but... based on the post above... it seems like more people are crossing over to my way of thinking about Ceton.

I'd love to hear from Richard1980 about how things are going with his new HD HomeRun PRIME tuner vs. his old InfiniTV4 PCIe.

[wanabefree]

The Heading says it all.
So Now What ? Move on?
I believe that was the message Motz put out basically putting out an advance obituary for the whole Q & Echo project. Its done no meaningful further development will come. They tried to tame a Lion and failed. Get used to it and Move on.

So Now What, well you can keep dreaming of a magic firmware upgrade that will fix all the short comings but the current hardware can not do any more than it already does. For some that is good enough but most of us want fare more. So Move on, either stick with the echo or go out and get an XBOX 360 that is all there is and probably for Windows MCE all there ever will be.

Am I happy about it , Sure but it is out of my control. Does Ceton Owe me anything maybe but probably not. I only purchased one Echo during the Beta @ $129.00 so I just have to accept that it was a bad investment and move on. Would I by another, probably not unless Something changed and I do not see that happening.

Some have suggested Tivo as there preferred alternative. I see that as a non starter,my #2 reason for using MCE & Sage before that was to eliminate unwanted costs. I have a great disdain for cable companies forcing us to use there overpriced set top boxes. Now if TIVO would maybe sell there product as a onetime software solution maybe that would be a good thing. There hardware and licensing is too expensive for me. In the perfect world I would have one DVR/server and all the rest would be built into my TV. No per TV extra costs. Of course I would want true ala carte channel choices too.

My crystal ball tells me that it will not be long before all TV is IP TV and cable companies will have to rethink there distribution and pricing. But Who knows I am just disappointed that Ceton has failed to produce what they promised.

Mine was $159, shipped. I don't think any of them were $129. If some were, I want my $30 back!

You got me . Was just going of the top of my head and at my age I honestly do not remember everything from 6 mos ago .

[richard1980]

I'd love to hear from Richard1980 about how things are going with his new HD HomeRun PRIME tuner vs. his old InfiniTV4 PCIe.

I posted in a different thread a few days ago, but I'll post here as well. The InfiniTV4 is a good piece of equipment, but the HDHRP is a better piece of equipment. There are a few unresolved issues with the InfiniTV4 that simply do not exist with the HDHRP. First, the InfiniTV4 takes a while to become usable after boot/wake (usually about 30-45 seconds). The HDHRP is available after only about 8 seconds on my machine. Second, the InfiniTV4 causes WMC to greet me with a stupid spinning donut every time I start WMC. I don't have that same issue with the HDHRP enabled. Third, the InfiniTV4 has an issue where the on-screen picture will often contain a single line of pixelation. The HDHRP does not do this.

There is one thing that I have noticed with the HDHRP that puzzles me. When I check the signal levels, I see dB values that are well below the readings for the same frequency when measured on the InfiniTV4. Some frequencies even measure as low as -14 dB, which I would expect to be evidenced by the on-screen video. However, on-screen video looks perfect. And what I find most puzzling about this is the dB difference isn't consistent. Sometimes there's a 10 dB difference between the InfiniTV4 and the HDHRP, and other times there's a 5 or 6 dB difference. I'd really like to find a method of measuring all frequencies on the HDHRP without having to manually tune all the channels...something similar to WhatHappend's AllCetonSignals script.

Overall, I'd say the HDHRP is superior to the InfiniTV4 in every way except the number of tuners.

[Biggen]

Looking at the "writing on the wall", I bet Ceton totally abandons the consumer market and focuses on their commercial/hotel market. I would be very surprised if development of the Echo continues. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and the Echo has been one blunder after another...

[slowbiscuit]

As far as "cost" for an existing WMC user, I have a problem with someone quoting $1100.

Here's my breakdown:
Roamio DVR = $200/$400/$600 (regular, plus, pro)
Lifetime Fee = $500

It's more like $600 for a base Roamio with lifetime using the long-running coupon code PLSR to activate lifetime service ($400 vs. $500 without the code). You do have to buy the Roamio at Best Buy, Amazon, etc. instead of Tivo and activate service afterwards I believe, if you buy the Roamio with service on tivo.com you'll pay full price.

The cost comparison for an HTPC w/WMC and 4 tuners + extenders vs. a Tivo + extenders, for me, has always been roughly equal with one extender. Using the Roamio here you're looking at a little over $900 (with a drive upgrade) which is a little more than what the HTPC setup would cost. Once you get past one extender the HTPC is cheaper because of Tivo's markup on the Minis.

[slowbiscuit]

One major assumption I'm going to make about people switching from WMC to Roamio is that they already have a hard drive that they can put in the Roamio that they were using for WMC. I fit into this catergory and please don't flame for this assumption. I know what happens when you "assume" something.

I realize that there are better places to ask, but can you play files moved off the Roamio to a server directly over the network? Or do you still have to transfer them back before you watch them?

Yes, they're just native mpeg2's after they're transferred off with kmttg or pyTivo. You can stream them back with a program called streambaby for Tivo, or just transfer them back and start playback immediately while transferring. Some users use kmttg with this approach to also strip commercials, automatically. Copy-freely shows only, of course.

[adam1991]

I find it interesting that the base Roamio is missing some things compared to the Plus/Pro:

* 2 fewer tuners
* no streaming to iOS devices
* requires extra Stream device for remote viewing
* MoCA requires adapter (built-in on Plus/Pro)

but then it has something attractive that's not available on the Plus/Pro: OTA support.

I guess given that my WMC is currently engaged with cableCARD and I gave up the clear QAM tuner, I probably wouldn't miss the OTA support.

It looks like they all do expandable storage with external drives, which frankly is something I wish WMC would do.

[Dean L. Surkin]

And speaking of SiliconDust and the HDHomeRun Prime, I saw this news release on their website, hinting at their own DVR solution, Simple.TV.
http://www.silicondust.com/company/news/

[slowbiscuit]

It looks like they all do expandable storage with external drives, which frankly is something I wish WMC would do.

Not following you here, I had WMC running with a USB drive for a while with no issue - do you mean the ability to use multiple drives for recording? Really a non issue if you script moving stuff around as needed.
And the Tivo implementation is much worse IMO because they stripe the recordings across both drives (internal and external) so if either one fails you lose everything.

[Skybolt]

... It looks like they all do expandable storage with external drives, which frankly is something I wish WMC would do.

7MC does support this and if you use MCEBuddy it moves recordings automatically as well. You can also just add a recording drive as well. I push all of my recorded series stuff to my server and leave my main recording drive for just that, new recording. I do wish you could map where recordings go though that would be real sweet.

[giggitygoo]

I can't imagine that Ceton is really going to flush all the Android dev work down the drain over the upgrade issue. It seems like a no-brainer to simply release a Echo 2 (or completely different name to try to shake off the curse) built from the ground up to support Android/WMCExtender. It seems logical that given the problems, they are trying to space out that announcement so as not to make it look like a bait and switch. (Ok, not moreso like that) Think about it - every piece of smart TV hardware gets changed every 1-2 years. (Roku 3, Apple TV 3, etc.) At some point Ceton is going to replace the current Echo, (assuming they're still in business) and when that happens why wouldn't they simply bring Android in at that point? Unless of course, the upgrade failure wasn't the only reason for cancelling. But I think a Echo ver 2 is more likely, though it may take some time before we see it.

[brandenwan]

I understand that MCX will be around for at least a few more years, but features are dropping off and development of even third party apps is dying. I've never enjoyed the extender experience, and I really wanted something where you couldn't tell if you were on the HTPC or the extender. I guess I could just build a really crappy HTPC to be as slow as the extenders, but I digress... It's just never going to hit that level of ability. The last company holding out for the ecosystem is leaving the party to work on something new, so I'm ready to pioneer into something new as well.

Yeah, you're right-- but it does depend on what type of experience you're looking for. TV DVR with a shared guide and shared recordings is just fine with the current option (WMC/MCX). And those features aren't dropping off as far as anyone knows.

So the real rub is in the "everything else". Bluray, file support (beyond MPEG2/WTV), streaming services like Netflix, HBOGo, etc...

You really hit it on the head though-- it's almost like you need mini PCs to do everything else. I'm actually considering modifying my WMC/MCX Menus to ONLY show the Television line of Recorded TV / Guide / LiveTV-- have my Xboxes all boot straight to that-- and then build a bunch of ITXMinis with IR receivers that can fire up Plex or some other 10'UI for the everything else.

You're right - The TV aspect is "ok" for the most part, although lately the guide data has been slipping. I don't think it is any fault of MS, but they aren't doing anything to make the provider fix it either. For example, there are certain shows that record every episode even though I have it set to only record new episodes. This constantly fills up my HDD so I need to do weekly mass deletes to free up space and prevent the stuff I care about from being deleted. It's a small thing, but something that didn't used to happen and just another sign that nobody is manning the helm anymore. I'm probably just being moping and will stick around awhile longer, but I'm not buying any new hardware. When it dies, I'm done.

OMG, I thought I was going crazy. Thank god my HDD is roughly 6 terabytes so MS can have at it for now. I just didn't feel like deleting like 4 episodes of the same "Inside Man" on CNN in the same 8 hour block, and let's not even talk about how many episodes of Catfish I came home to find one day...YIKES. I can't help but think MS is trying to "sour the milk" of the WMC experience sometimes, but since they are profiting off of WMC in Windows 8 forward, I don't know why they would. I do love my WMC, won't trade it in for anything, and Cable STILL can't touch it. As long as cable or IPTV (Verizon in my case) insist on plastering their adds all over their INFERIOR guide, and charge like $20 a month for the "privilege" of having a decent HD DVR, I JUST SAY NO. I am not surprised that Ceton scrapped the project, but as the landscape changes, I can see others stepping in where Ceton left off. As for the lack of our promised functionality, I found a silver lining in the likes of Roku and Plex. I have pretty much everything I need in my living room and in my bedrooms....two small little friends who sit side-by-side (Echo and Roku) I put Wall-E and Eve stickers on them......of course Echo got the Wall-E sticker for obvious reasons.

[dabretty]

Oh man, I like the Wall-E reference. Very fitting for the Echo.

[Diverge]

And speaking of SiliconDust and the HDHomeRun Prime, I saw this news release on their website, hinting at their own DVR solution, Simple.TV.
http://www.silicondust.com/company/news/

Somewhat interesting, but it's for europe and for OTA content, as least their current products are. Also, it's been over a year almost since SD announced Project Connect and their upcoming tuners w/ transcoding, and not much news since.

[koberhol]

I can't imagine that Ceton is really going to flush all the Android dev work down the drain over the upgrade issue. It seems like a no-brainer to simply release a Echo 2 (or completely different name to try to shake off the curse) built from the ground up to support Android/WMCExtender. It seems logical that given the problems, they are trying to space out that announcement so as not to make it look like a bait and switch. (Ok, not moreso like that) Think about it - every piece of smart TV hardware gets changed every 1-2 years. (Roku 3, Apple TV 3, etc.) At some point Ceton is going to replace the current Echo, (assuming they're still in business) and when that happens why wouldn't they simply bring Android in at that point? Unless of course, the upgrade failure wasn't the only reason for cancelling. But I think a Echo ver 2 is more likely, though it may take some time before we see it.

+1

(I wish +1,000,000 was an option.. because you hit the nail on the head!!!)

I'm sure Ceton spent tens of thousands of dollars working on Android.. Why would they give it away for free? This is not a crack on Ceton either.. I'm sure it became a point in where the cost of time invested (9 months) became so large they needed to figure a way to recoup that expense. Surely initial intentions to have this as a free upgrade were sincere as they figured it would be fairly simple to implement. Guess what? It wasn't!! It just doesn't make good business sense to pioneer WMC to the next level without generating appropriate revenue in the process. Trust me.... We need Echo2... We will get Echo-ETHAndroid... Can I please be a Beta Tester???

Lastly, per some other things I am reading about Ceton going in a different direction! My thoughts... Company's that take a different direction exist and continue or possibly struggle and die. Company's that expand in products and divisions... grew and usually prosper! I think this additional opportunity for them is of the later!

[handyd]

I can't imagine that Ceton is really going to flush all the Android dev work down the drain over the upgrade issue. It seems like a no-brainer to simply release a Echo 2 (or completely different name to try to shake off the curse) built from the ground up to support Android/WMCExtender. It seems logical that given the problems, they are trying to space out that announcement so as not to make it look like a bait and switch. (Ok, not moreso like that) Think about it - every piece of smart TV hardware gets changed every 1-2 years. (Roku 3, Apple TV 3, etc.) At some point Ceton is going to replace the current Echo, (assuming they're still in business) and when that happens why wouldn't they simply bring Android in at that point? Unless of course, the upgrade failure wasn't the only reason for cancelling. But I think a Echo ver 2 is more likely, though it may take some time before we see it.

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!

This is exactly what I have been thinking since they announced the issue. I use my ECHO every day and it does exactly what I need it for; play RecordTV, X.264, MKV, and DIVX files in my Bedroom. I would love to also be able to play Netflix and/or Amazon prime as well. If Ceton came out with another unit that did all this, I would strongly consider buying it.

My current Echo has more than paid for itself by not having to play my cable company an extra $17/month for a DVR for my bedroom.

[barnabas1969]

Overall, I'd say the HDHRP is superior to the InfiniTV4 in every way except the number of tuners.

Thanks. That confirms my feelings. So many people think I'm nuts.

As for the differences you're seeing in signal strength, is the HDHRP plugged in to the same coax cable where the ITV4 was connected?

[richard1980]

As for the differences you're seeing in signal strength, is the HDHRP plugged in to the same coax cable where the ITV4 was connected?

Yes

[JohnW248]

As for the differences you're seeing in signal strength, is the HDHRP plugged in to the same coax cable where the ITV4 was connected?

Yes

It's difficult to determine who is "right" on signal strength & SNR. Remember the ATI DCT? Those values were always way off. Now SL and SNR will vary over the spectrum bandwidth as well as over time. A valid comparison would require a cable co spectrum scan and both tuners connected at that time, then you could chart and pick a standard to use. Of course something that reads accurately from -4 to +6 might not read properly from -10 to -4 or +6 to +12 for example.

How much variation do you see? Right now channel 347 is 2.2 on the USB tuner on the Dell and is 4.4 on a Prime to a HP Laptop feeding a Echo. These two tuners are located next to each other and are feed of the same splitter. There is a -6dB pad on the Ceton and a -12db pad on the Prime but I've never really measured those for accuracy both seemed hot for me and I just put in what I found first.

This is just one channel at 567 MHz so it's pretty much "middle" and today its 95 degrees F outside at 5:21pm PDT.

[foxwood]

Overall, I'd say the HDHRP is superior to the InfiniTV4 in every way except the number of tuners.

Thanks. That confirms my feelings. So many people think I'm nuts.

May you and Richard are both nuts

There are a few unresolved issues with the InfiniTV4 that simply do not exist with the HDHRP. First, the InfiniTV4 takes a while to become usable after boot/wake (usually about 30-45 seconds). The HDHRP is available after only about 8 seconds on my machine.

While I don't dispute that this difference exists, (it's hardly surprising - how long does the HDHRP take to become available from power on?), for many WMC users it's a non issue. I can't be the only WMC user that hasn't watched live TV in years, and waking for recordings doesn't have a problem with this.

Second, the InfiniTV4 causes WMC to greet me with a stupid spinning donut every time I start WMC.

It's a HTPC. How often do you quit WMC? And if you don't quit WMC, you won't see 3 seconds of donut when you restart.

Third, the InfiniTV4 has an issue where the on-screen picture will often contain a single line of pixelation. The HDHRP does not do this.

I have never seen this on my InfiniTV4.

From where I sit, the 4th tuner in the InfiniTV more than makes up for any perceived shortcomings. Maybe if anyone in this house cared about live TV, that 20 second delay might be an issue, but there are lots of InfiniTV users who just don't see it as an issue.