New quiet Xbox 360

[richard1980]

WOW! Didn't realize I would start a war.

It's not a war at all...kingwr and I have gone back and forth on this topic several times in the past. He says he doesn't understand why Microsoft doesn't release Softsled, I explain why, and then he disagrees. I'm pretty sure if Bill Gates himself tried to explain it, kingwr would still disagree.

I have a valid Win 7 license, a number of them. I would gladly pay for another license if I could soft sled extender. Sure, I can;t beat the price of extender if I had to buy all the parts for it (HDCP compliant, hardware, ect). But, I have a bunch of older computers/parts that would serve as extenders just fine. Older MSI Mega 180, Atom N330 dual core on Ion board.... All of them are more powerful than Linksys DMA2100.

I bought the original extenders for $80 on newegg (very reasonable price if you asked me). However, when that dried up, I started buying used XBOXes that were RRODed. I could care less for their ability to play games. They were purchased solely for the extender functionality. I am not going to buy a $150 xbox for extender (or dedicated extender for more than $100), but at $20 for RRODed XBOX I am very comfortable buying them. However, I envision that is going to dry up soon too.

I find it odd that you wouldn't pay $150 for an Xbox or more than $100 for one of the other extenders, but you would spend a minimum of $150 on a Softsled solution ($100 for W7, probably around $50 for Softsled, and whatever else you have to spend on PC hardware). You could end up spending $200 or $300 on the software solution, whereas you can pick up a used extender (Xbox or otherwise) on eBay for far less money.

It is my understanding that extender functionality is pretty much a soft sled in the XBOX (XBOX OS on a triple core IBM computer with ATI graphics card), and extenders (Win CE), so why not allow other Win 7's use that? That is what I meant by "allow"

Because then you have no incentive to buy an Xbox One, so you probably won't buy one. And if you don't buy one, you certainly won't buy any Xbox One games or peripherals, nor will you buy any subscriptions. If Microsoft continues their previous Xbox trend, they won't make any money selling the Xbox One itself. They make their money selling all the other "stuff" for it. It works just like a movie theater. Movie theaters don't make any money on ticket sales. They make all their money selling the "stuff" that goes along with the ticket...popcorn, candy, and soda.

If Microsoft wanted the XBOX and its extender functionality to be a revenue generator, they would have required you to have Live Gold account to use Extender, like they do with HULU, Netflix, and FiOS/XFinity applications.

If Microsoft did that, then nobody would buy the Xbox to use as an extender. People would prefer other extender devices (the ones that don't have that recurring subscription fee). Thus that strategy wouldn't work.

I doubt too many new XBOX sales were generated by the extender functionality alone.

I have no doubt that most people buying an Xbox purely for extender functionality end up buying a used Xbox. Oddly enough, a used Xbox is more profitable than a new Xbox. Microsoft loses money every time a new Xbox is sold, but they don't lose any money when a used Xbox is sold. But either way, it ends up being an Xbox in use, which means there is potential that the user will buy "stuff" for it.

[werds]

I am dissapointed that the Stingray ended up still with a planned msrp of $199... the rumoured $99 would have been awesome!

[gary94080]

I went from a white Xbox to the black model and that seems pretty quiet to me.

the new ones must be almost silent.

If Microsoft did that, then nobody would buy the Xbox to use as an extender. People would prefer other extender devices (the ones that don't have that recurring subscription fee). Thus that strategy wouldn't work.

I use the Xbox mostly as extenders and just have a few games. what do you get with the recurring subscription fee?

[kingwr]

Its not your opinion that's at issue, its the presentation. For you to be "explaining" it to us would require that you know the information and be relating it to the rest of us who don't know. But its clear you don't know any information and are merely speculating like the rest of us. Further, breaking someone else's comment down and attacking it point-by-point doesn't bring credibility to your argument, as you evidently imagine that it does. By example:

I didn't pay any attention to what was going on back then...

Yes that is evident.

So at CES 2004 when Microsoft announced the Media Center Extender Kit for the original Xbox], they only saw the Xbox as a game platform?

Yes. The XSled extender was release by the eHome group as a game for the XBox. The XBox group didn't have this anywhere on the radar. It wasn't until a year and a half later when the XBox 360 was released that it had built-in extender functionality and a green button on the remote. SoftSled had come and gone by then.

Why do you think Microsoft wanted to make WMC attractive to OEMs? To make money. Just like when they decided to release Xbox extender functionality instead of Softsled, they did it to make money.

To make money off of Windows MCE licenses from OEMS, not from extender sales themselves.

There is absolutely nothing equal about the revenue that can be generated. Each copy of Softsled sold would only be able to generate a maximum profit equal to the selling price of Softsled, whereas each Xbox sold can generate unlimited profit.

Every observer knows that XBox sales makes no money for Microsoft. They take a loss on each unit. Its games sales, licensing revenue, and XBox Live revenue where they make money. Further, I can guarantee you Microsoft made more money by selling premium SKUs of Windows 7 containing Media Center functionality than they did from XBox hardware sales.

First, you're wrong. Many people have purchased Xboxes solely for the purpose of being an extender (both before and after W7's release). Second, even if you were right and the only people that bought an Xbox were those that wanted it to be more than just an extender, that just further proves my point. Obviously they wanted gaming, Netflix, or something else that Softsled wouldn't be able to offer, so Microsoft couldn't sell those people Softsled in the first place.

Go back to 2007 when everyone was waiting on V2 extenders to be released. The overwhelming opinion at the time was XBoxes made lousy extenders -- big, hot, noisy, RROD, etc... Oh yeah, you weren't paying attention then. I forgot.

[SilverRubicon]

Has anyone found one of these new 360s in the wild?

[blueiedgod]

I find it odd that you wouldn't pay $150 for an Xbox or more than $100 for one of the other extenders, but you would spend a minimum of $150 on a Softsled solution ($100 for W7, probably around $50 for Softsled, and whatever else you have to spend on PC hardware). You could end up spending $200 or $300 on the software solution, whereas you can pick up a used extender (Xbox or otherwise) on eBay for far less money.

Who is paying $100 for Win 7 license? $30 at most. Some I was able to get for under $10 (University connection). And I meant that soft sled option was available in win 7, not just an add on. But, if they go with the Win 8 model where you can buy the media pack for $10, I woudl expect the soft sled to be included in the media pack.

If Microsoft wanted the XBOX and its extender functionality to be a revenue generator, they would have required you to have Live Gold account to use Extender, like they do with HULU, Netflix, and FiOS/XFinity applications.

If Microsoft did that, then nobody would buy the Xbox to use as an extender. People would prefer other extender devices (the ones that don't have that recurring subscription fee). Thus that strategy wouldn't work.

What other extender devices? The alternatives were shelved due to low interest from the public, and the only currently available alternative it still trying to figure out how to make it work. Microsoft has a virtual monopoly in the extender market. If they turned the switch tomorrow to make extender functionality available through Live Gold, and disabled any other extender from connecting, we would have no choice.

I doubt too many new XBOX sales were generated by the extender functionality alone.

I have no doubt that most people buying an Xbox purely for extender functionality end up buying a used Xbox. Oddly enough, a used Xbox is more profitable than a new Xbox. Microsoft loses money every time a new Xbox is sold, but they don't lose any money when a used Xbox is sold. But either way, it ends up being an Xbox in use, which means there is potential that the user will buy "stuff" for it.

Every used XBOX sold on the secondary market could also mean a complete loss to Microsoft, as the owner may have switched to competition. Most people who I bought used XBOXes from had no idea about extender functionality.

[richard1980]

I use the Xbox mostly as extenders and just have a few games. what do you get with the recurring subscription fee?

Access to online content such as Netflix requires an Xbox Live Gold subscription.

But its clear you don't know any information and are merely speculating like the rest of us.

My position is that Option A (Xbox) has greater profit potential than Option B (Softsled). That's not speculation...it's a fact. If you disagree, I challenge you to prove that if X represents the amount of money that Microsoft could profit from the sale of a single copy of Softsled, it would be impossible for Microsoft to profit X + 1 from the sale of a single Xbox. Alternatively, I will also accept your proof that X + 1 < X.

It is also my position that Microsoft chose the current option in an effort to maximize profits. Again, that is not speculation...it's a fact. There is not a for-profit business in existence who's ultimate goal is anything other than making as much money as they possibly can. Of course, you are welcome to try to prove me wrong. Prove that Microsoft's ultimate goal is anything other than maximizing profits.

Further, breaking someone else's comment down and attacking it point-by-point doesn't bring credibility to your argument, as you evidently imagine that it does.

When a post has multiple points that deserve a response, I will respond to each point, ensuring that the context of my response is evident.

Yes. The XSled extender was release by the eHome group as a game for the XBox. The XBox group didn't have this anywhere on the radar. It wasn't until a year and a half later when the XBox 360 was released that it had built-in extender functionality and a green button on the remote. SoftSled had come and gone by then.

I didn't ask you about the eHome team or the Xbox team. I asked you about Microsoft.

To make money off of Windows MCE licenses from OEMS, not from extender sales themselves.

Every observer knows that XBox sales makes no money for Microsoft. They take a loss on each unit. Its games sales, licensing revenue, and XBox Live revenue where they make money.

Further, I can guarantee you Microsoft made more money by selling premium SKUs of Windows 7 containing Media Center functionality than they did from XBox hardware sales.

I'm not sure why you are focusing on the box itself...think about the big picture, not just one piece of the puzzle.

Go back to 2007 when everyone was waiting on V2 extenders to be released. The overwhelming opinion at the time was XBoxes made lousy extenders -- big, hot, noisy, RROD, etc... Oh yeah, you weren't paying attention then. I forgot.

2004 <> 2007. Also, opinions are irrelevant. People still bought Xbox 360s to use as extenders, just like they do today.

Who is paying $100 for Win 7 license?

I quoted Newegg's price.

And I meant that soft sled option was available in win 7, not just an add on.

Microsoft is unlikely to switch from charging for the extender to giving it away for free, and they don't want to charge everybody for it when only a few people are going to use it (as evidenced by their actions in W8), so Softsled as a paid add-on is the only thing that makes sense to me.

What other extender devices? The alternatives were shelved due to low interest from the public, and the only currently available alternative it still trying to figure out how to make it work.

Your post was about Microsoft's actions in the past ("If Microsoft wanted the XBOX and its extender functionality to be a revenue generator, they would have required you to have Live Gold account to use Extender"). I assumed that my response would be interpreted as applying to the same time frame as your post. Besides, the older extenders can still be purchased today on eBay, etc.

Every used XBOX sold on the secondary market could also mean a complete loss to Microsoft, as the owner may have switched to competition. Most people who I bought used XBOXes from had no idea about extender functionality.

The seller decided to stop using the Xbox. It doesn't really matter why, because no matter what, the seller will not be purchasing anything else for that box. So there is no opportunity to make any more money from the seller.

The buyer has two options for acquiring an Xbox. He could buy a used Xbox, or he could buy a new Xbox. Either way, he's going to spend the same amount of money on "stuff" for the Xbox, which means Microsoft's cut of the sales of the "stuff" will be the same regardless of whether he purchases a new box or a used box. The difference comes down to how much Microsoft loses if he buys a new Xbox.

In mathematical terms:

P = Profit from "stuff"
L = Loss from the sale of a new Xbox

P > P - L

Alternatively:

P1 = Profit from the "stuff" that person #1 bought for the Xbox
P2 = Profit from the "stuff" that person #2 bought for the Xbox
L1 = Loss from the sale of new Xbox #1
L2 = Loss from the sale of new Xbox #2

P1 - L1 + P2 > P1 - L1 + P2 - L2

[newfiend]

My target store had the older slim model on and end cap for clearance last weekend.. Now I know why. Even the older slim model wasn't overly loud.. Your mileage may vary on that opinion though..

Sent from my Lumia 920 using Board Express.

[blueiedgod]

My target store had the older slim model on and end cap for clearance last weekend.. Now I know why. Even the older slim model wasn't overly loud.. Your mileage may vary on that opinion though..

Sent from my Lumia 920 using Board Express.

cowboom had used 4Gb Slims for $60 this morning.

[blueiedgod]

And I meant that soft sled option was available in win 7, not just an add on.

Microsoft is unlikely to switch from charging for the extender to giving it away for free, and they don't want to charge everybody for it when only a few people are going to use it (as evidenced by their actions in W8), so Softsled as a paid add-on is the only thing that makes sense to me.

What other extender devices? The alternatives were shelved due to low interest from the public, and the only currently available alternative it still trying to figure out how to make it work.

Your post was about Microsoft's actions in the past ("If Microsoft wanted the XBOX and its extender functionality to be a revenue generator, they would have required you to have Live Gold account to use Extender"). I assumed that my response would be interpreted as applying to the same time frame as your post. Besides, the older extenders can still be purchased today on eBay, etc.

Every used XBOX sold on the secondary market could also mean a complete loss to Microsoft, as the owner may have switched to competition. Most people who I bought used XBOXes from had no idea about extender functionality.

The seller decided to stop using the Xbox. It doesn't really matter why, because no matter what, the seller will not be purchasing anything else for that box. So there is no opportunity to make any more money from the seller.

The buyer has two options for acquiring an Xbox. He could buy a used Xbox, or he could buy a new Xbox. Either way, he's going to spend the same amount of money on "stuff" for the Xbox, which means Microsoft's cut of the sales of the "stuff" will be the same regardless of whether he purchases a new box or a used box. The difference comes down to how much Microsoft loses if he buys a new Xbox.

In mathematical terms:

P = Profit from "stuff"
L = Loss from the sale of a new Xbox

P > P - L

Alternatively:

P1 = Profit from the "stuff" that person #1 bought for the Xbox
P2 = Profit from the "stuff" that person #2 bought for the Xbox
L1 = Loss from the sale of new Xbox #1
L2 = Loss from the sale of new Xbox #2

P1 - L1 + P2 > P1 - L1 + P2 - L2

Whether they enable soft sled for free, or charge nominal fee, I would be interested in having that option. The only thing I need softsled for is Live and Recorded TV because of the copyright restrictions. Everything else can be mapped in windows.

I am aware how P&L sheets are done. Once original purchaser paid manufacturer, there is no further revenue stream from the purchaser until another purchase is made. However, sale of the used merchandize on the secondary market directly affects the manufacturer, since the secondary buyer is not purchasing from the manufacturer. And it is further exhasurbated if the the original purchaser switches brand loyalty.

Look at how MSFT is approaching used game sales, they are DRMing games to the machine/profile, because they get no revenue from the secondary market game sales, and losing primary customers who purchase used games. I would imagine that secondary market game sales are more profitable than primary, just like in the automotive industry. Used car lots are usually profit generators for a dealership, along with the service deprtment, and new car sales are ether at break even, minimal profit, or a loss.

[foxwood]

I am aware how P&L sheets are done. Once original purchaser paid manufacturer, there is no further revenue stream from the purchaser until another purchase is made. However, sale of the used merchandize on the secondary market directly affects the manufacturer, since the secondary buyer is not purchasing from the manufacturer. And it is further exhasurbated if the the original purchaser switches brand loyalty.

You seem to be under the impression that MS makes a profit when it sells an XBox. That might or might not be the case now, but it definitely wasn't that case for a number of years after the release of the XBox. If MS is subsidising the cost of the hardware, then there is no negative affect on MS when a users buys a 2nd hand XBox - there was no profit to be made, so there was no profit lost in a secondary sale.

Look at how MSFT is approaching used game sales, they are DRMing games to the machine/profile, because they get no revenue from the secondary market game sales, and losing primary customers who purchase used games.

Microsoft isn't the only company producing XBox games - the move to "digital only" games will benefit the likes of EA far more than it will MS. If anything, relatively permissive sharing is in MS's best interest, as it makes the likely pool of XBone gamers bigger.

But in the long run, it doesn't matter what logic you come up to convince yourself that you know what MS should do better than MS does. The decision was made years ago that SoftSled wouldn't be released. It's hard to even conceive of circumstances that would lead MS to change that decision. It simpley isn't important enough for it to even get on the agenda of anyone who would be in a position to change that decade old decision.

[kingwr]

My position is that Option A (Xbox) has greater profit potential than Option B (Softsled). That's not speculation...it's a fact.

I see the problem now -- you are delusional. How can you make a statement about the profit potential of a product that was never released, never priced, and never sold, and then say your statement is a "fact?" You clearly don't have a grasp of the meaning of the word.

[richard1980]

However, sale of the used merchandize on the secondary market directly affects the manufacturer, since the secondary buyer is not purchasing from the manufacturer.

Correct. When the manufacturer is selling the merchandise for a profit, they will be negatively affected by sales on the secondary market and positively affected by sales on the primary market. But when the manufacturer is selling the merchandise for a loss, the exact opposite is true...they are positively affected by sales on the secondary market and negatively affected by sales on the primary market.

I would imagine that secondary market game sales are more profitable than primary

It's profitable to the used game dealer, but not to Microsoft (well, not yet anyway). As it is now, Microsoft doesn't get a cut of used game sales, and since they profit from sales in the primary market, they are negatively affected by secondary market sales.

My position is that Option A (Xbox) has greater profit potential than Option B (Softsled). That's not speculation...it's a fact.

I see the problem now -- you are delusional. How can you make a statement about the profit potential of a product that was never released, never priced, and never sold, and then say your statement is a "fact?" You clearly don't have a grasp of the meaning of the word.

Do you know the definition of the word "potential"?

Oh, and by the way, the price of Softsled is irrelevant. Softsled could cost $1 or $1000. Xbox still has more profit potential. Unless of course you think it is not possible for a person to buy one Xbox and so many games that they end up giving Microsoft $1001 in profit.

[gary94080]

I use the Xbox mostly as extenders and just have a few games. what do you get with the recurring subscription fee?

Access to online content such as Netflix requires an Xbox Live Gold subscription.

so you would have to pay for Xbox Live Gold and a Netflix fee?

[richard1980]

Correct (assuming you want to watch Netflix on the Xbox). Netflix is just one example of the online content that you can access if you have an Xbox Live Gold subscription. The full list is located here.

[foxwood]

Correct (assuming you want to watch Netflix on the Xbox). Netflix is just one example of the online content that you can access if you have an Xbox Live Gold subscription. The full list is located here.

That's one of the main reasons that an XBox fails as an extender - "free DVR software with no monthly TIVO fee, and you can watch on any screen in the house, but you have to pay a monthly fee to be allowed to watch the stuff you're already paying to watch".

[gary94080]

Correct (assuming you want to watch Netflix on the Xbox). Netflix is just one example of the online content that you can access if you have an Xbox Live Gold subscription. The full list is located here.

ok, thanks. didn't think there is anything there I would pay twice for.

[mdavej]

Hmm... I'm still not seeing why I would want to pay for all of that content on Xbox when it's free on every other streaming device in my home. It's great that Microsoft has figured out how to make millions of people pay for free stuff. I just don't understand why anyone would actually fall for it.

[Diverge]

Not sure if it was already posted in this thread or not (I scanned through all the junk in here), but the new 360 is the same as the previous one basically. A few minor changes. The only thing that would make it quieter is a different power brick, which I'm pretty sure is different (the plug connector itself is). There's a teardown of the new one already http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Xbox+360 ... wn/15062/1

[gary94080]

Not sure if it was already posted in this thread or not (I scanned through all the junk in here), but the new 360 is the same as the previous one basically. A few minor changes. The only thing that would make it quieter is a different power brick, which I'm pretty sure is different (the plug connector itself is). There's a teardown of the new one already http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Xbox+360 ... wn/15062/1

the power brick makes noise? I thought it was just the fan.