iOS vs Android - Split from Android on Echo Thread

[barnabas1969]

I think if you have to boot to a separate OS and it doesn't have a native 10' UI, then it will be a "feature' of the Echo that will have no interest to me. I can get an AppleTV for $89 and it is a best of breed digital media player. Ceton is struggling to make the Echo a best of breed Media Center Extender (I know they will do it eventually), but I don't think they will also be able to make it a best of breed digital media player at the same time.

Apple what? Best of WHAT? Seriously? Best at putting you into a steel trap, maybe. To be honest, I've never tried Apple TV... but my experience with Apple-anything has been that of an electronic prison for brain-dead users. Want to customize your device without paying a recurring fee to Apple? Then, don't go with an Apple any-device.

[rsoares28]

Apple what? Best of WHAT? Seriously? Best at putting you into a steel trap, maybe. To be honest, I've never tried Apple TV... but my experience with Apple-anything has been that of an electronic prison for brain-dead users. Want to customize your device without paying a recurring fee to Apple? Then, don't go with an Apple any-device.

Wow really? Pretty harsh words. What about the folks who prefer a simple to use polished UI? or the folks who dont require/care about customization? Are they brain dead too?

Isnt Android vs iOS just personal preference at this point??? is one really "better" than other?

Why so mad?

[STC]

....brain-dead users...

How are your pixelation problems coming along?

[adam1991]

oh, SNAP!

[barnabas1969]

....brain-dead users...

How are your pixelation problems coming along?

Gone. When the cable company finally sent a whole team of people to my house, they fixed every problem they could find, including climbing the poles in my neighborhood to replace taps.

Wow really? Pretty harsh words. What about the folks who prefer a simple to use polished UI? or the folks who dont require/care about customization? Are they brain dead too?

Isnt Android vs iOS just personal preference at this point??? is one really "better" than other?

Why so mad?

I'm not angry. And sure, I understand that some people aren't very technically inclined, and they would rather have something that just works. My experience with Apple is with the iPhone 4S. My wife wanted the iPhone, and my kids and I got Android. The Android "just works", but it also allows us to customize stuff, download anything we want, etc. The iPhone has my wife trapped in the Apple ecosystem... she can't download/install anything she wants and she can't simply insert flash sticks to carry her music/photos/whatever with her. So, she has to pay apple a fee to use the iCloud to store her music, etc. She's so frustrated with the limitations that she's decided to go with an Android when our contract expires with Sprint in Nov 2013.

From what I see, Apple not only places all kinds of limitations on their devices, but they also lock you into having to pay them to store your data... instead of simply swapping flash sticks. With an Android... if all of my stuff doesn't fit on a single flash stick... I can simply pull it out and plug in a new one. Easy. Want 32GB of storage? easy... only costs about $20. With Apple... want a 32GB iPhone instead of 16GB? That'll be $100 for the extra 16GB. I can buy 16GB flash sticks all day long for about $10... but Apple charges an extra $100 for it? Crazy.

[adam1991]

Thanks for that brief review. I'm not a tablet or phone person, but (a) I've been a Mac person for 25 years, and (b) my wife has a Kindle, my boy has a Nexus 7, and we just got my father an iPad the other day.

I strongly resisted the iPad thing for my son forever, for the simple fact that no matter what you're locked hard into Apple's ecosystem. Finally the Nexus came out and while it doesn't have a card slot, the whole Android thing just seemed more open and available on demand overall (installing apps outside the Store, for example, which isn't even an option with Apple's stuff). And now I've set up an iPad, and I see how it just works.

So it does seem to me that you're correct: the Android platform can be as simple and user friendly and straightforward as you want it to be, and is very stable, while simultaneously giving the geek more freedom to play and hurt himself as much as he wants.

In other words, Apple no longer owns the "stable and it just works" thing like they did with desktop computers for so very long. They still own the support thing like no one else, though; I've heard of people struggling with Google with respect to supporting their hardware, for example, when it comes in DOA or whatever. The Apple Store model has been highly successful in that regard. Having a problem? Let the "Genius" look at it. Don't worry yourself, and don't worry that you're not a geek who doesn't "get it". Don't worry about asking "dumb" questions. Just go in and have your hand held. And in my personal experience, Apple's support--while not flawless--ROCKS in comparison to anything else out there.

So if you want a total experience like that, the tradeoff is that you have to belong to Apple's club. Frankly, that's a valid tradeoff for a huge part of the population (as opposed to the three thousand of us here worldwide who don't mind poking around our gear to figure it out). My father, for example, is probably much better served by being inside Apple's walled garden.

As for device capacities, Google is leading the way--and Apple is following, with its iCloud--on making that irrelevant. Right now, just store your music in the cloud instead of on the device and stream it down on demand. Nice. So the lack of a memory card slot isn't the deal breaker to me that it was awhile back (although I'm with you--if I were buying for myself, it would be something with a slot for exactly the reasons you outline, because I'm an old fart and old habits/demands die hard).

What I discovered I like about tablets, now that we've set one up for my father, is that for him the whole app thing is way easier for him than doing everything in a web browser. It's nice that all his financial companies have specific apps that let him work with them, formatted for the tablet. The web browser paradigm is harder for him to grasp. Introducing new things to him in a web browser, for example, is hard--but if you give him a carefully and well designed app for a specific function, he can figure that out. Nice.

And sure, I understand that some people aren't very technically inclined

ummm, *most* people aren't technically inclined. People here are the equivalent of those kids who went through auto shop class back in the 50s, when cars needed a lot of attention--but now it's to the point where cars are appliances, and so are computers and tablets. We'd like to think the world needs us, but such isn't the case.

[barnabas1969]

In other words, Apple no longer owns the "stable and it just works" thing like they did with desktop computers for so very long.

Funny thing. Desktop Windows computers have been in the "stable and it just works" category ever since Windows 2000 and XP. Unless, of course, you like to tweak things. In that case, if you don't know what you're doing... you can screw yourself really good. I have several friends who know nothing about computers. Their problems usually come from their kids messing around with stuff. Lock the kids down to a normal user account... and problem solved.

So if you want a total experience like that, the tradeoff is that you have to belong to Apple's club. Frankly, that's a valid tradeoff for a huge part of the population (as opposed to the three thousand of us here worldwide who don't mind poking around our gear to figure it out). My father, for example, is probably much better served by being inside Apple's walled garden.

Well... there are more than 3000 people who know how to tweak their gear. And, don't assume that this site is an all-encompassing world-wide thing, nor that all 3000 users at this site are tech-geeks. Some of them are average users who have come here for help. This site is mostly North American and UK users... with a sprinkle of people from other places around the globe. There are separate Media Center sites for several countries around the world, including Australia and the Netherlands. I check those sites occasionally too.

As for device capacities, Google is leading the way--and Apple is following, with its iCloud--on making that irrelevant. Right now, just store your music in the cloud instead of on the device and stream it down on demand. Nice. So the lack of a memory card slot isn't the deal breaker to me that it was awhile back.

Sure, if you don't mind paying for access to the iCloud. Google gives you a lot more storage space for free than you can get free from Apple. And... don't forget that many of us don't live in large metropolitan areas where they always have access to fast mobile networks and/or WiFi hotspots. Would you want to wait a few minutes to download a single song from the "cloud"? I didn't think so.

What I discovered I like about tablets, now that we've set one up for my father, is that for him the whole app thing is way easier for him than doing everything in a web browser. It's nice that all his financial companies have specific apps that let him work with them, formatted for the tablet. The web browser paradigm is harder for him to grasp. Introducing new things to him in a web browser, for example, is hard--but if you give him a carefully and well designed app for a specific function, he can figure that out. Nice.

Yep. And you could have those same apps on Android.

ummm, *most* people aren't technically inclined. People here are the equivalent of those kids who went through auto shop class back in the 50s, when cars needed a lot of attention--but now it's to the point where cars are appliances, and so are computers and tablets. We'd like to think the world needs us, but such isn't the case.

Yeah, I paused when I wrote that. I work for a "technology" company. In fact, in our "little" niche of financial transaction-processing/software/services, we're consistently #1 or #2 in the WORLD... depending on what month it is, and how you rate us. And... the only reason we're not always #1 is because #2 and #3 merged not so long ago! The amazing thing to me (even after working there for 15 years) is the fact that even in a "technology" company, there are LOTS of people who are not technically inclined. Scary, actually.

[barnabas1969]

I suppose I should add something just in case anyone figures out which companies I'm talking about, and they're scared of their financial information being exposed. We have very strict security policies, especially for the non-technical employees. And, since the enactment of PCI standards (Payment Card Industry standards) by the US Congress, security is getting tighter by the day... so much so that it makes our jobs exponentially more difficult. But, the PCI standards are good ideas and will make it extremely difficult for a hacker to access the data... and even if he does... he'll then need to spend tremendous resources to do anything with it.

If it means anything to you:

If you've ever paid a bill online, used your bank's bill-payment system, or used a debit/credit card... anywhere in the world... your transaction had more than an 80% chance of going through us. Plus, if you had an account at any of the largest banks in the US... 90% of them use our software to manage your account. Largest credit unions in the US? 75%. Credit unions in Canada? We're stealing the show... there is no competition. Internationally... many of the largest banks use us. And... zero hackers have stolen our data.

The fact still remains that the most likely place for your financial data to be stolen is at a restaurant or similar place where you hand your card to someone and they walk away from your table (and record your credit/debit card information). There is also a growing trend where pay-at-the-pump gasoline stations are being targeted and equipment is being installed on the pump to steal your information. These are both called "skimming".

There have been some huge losses of data at online (and brick-and-mortar) retailers and their payment processors in the past few years... and the PCI standards aim to correct that. In a short period of time, all US merchants (both brick-and-mortar and online) will be required to comply with PCI standards. Merchants who don't comply will not be allowed to accept Visa/Mastercard.

But, the losses at online merchants pale in comparison to the worldwide theft of credit/debit card information by "skimming".

So... I hope this makes you feel better. Don't trust the waitress. The reputable online merchant is much more trustworthy. And your bank (and their processor... most likely my employer) is even better than that.

[adam1991]

hmmmmmm....sounds like the world is ripe for something like Paypal or something similar to take over in the restaurant biz. Tell me how much is my bill, and give me the Paypal code. I go to Paypal, enter the code, the entire bill pops up--identical to the paper bill they just handed me, so I can check it--and I pay it right there on my phone, and get a confirmation code. I put the confirmation code onto my paper slip and hand that back to the server. Or something like that.

And at no point does my personal information enter into the restaurant's business.

Hmmmmm.....of course, then the hackers find a way to blanket the restaurant with a signal that hijacks my attempt to go to Paypal, and takes me to their site instead, complete with "whoops! we need to identify you completely, just fill in all this information right here" pages...

[barnabas1969]

I like the idea of those credit card scanners that connect to a smartphone (or even an iPod or tablet). If restaurants used those, the waitress would swipe my card right at my table so I could see what she was doing. There would be much less chance that she would write down my credit card number (a.k.a. "PAN"), expiration date, and CVV code while she's in my line of sight.

Some places are starting to take PayPal and Google Wallet, but I don't know how popular those will become. Home Depot takes PayPal in the store now, and I've read that quite a number of places take Google Wallet. I haven't seen any restaurants that advertise something like that though, and I don't know if I would use Google Wallet as I don't see any benefit for me. I don't see how paying with my phone could be any faster than swiping a card at a POS terminal. As for security... I've only had my credit/debit card information compromised once, due to a security breach at monoprice.com, and I caught the theft the same day, reported it to my bank, and got instant credit to my account. The bank then issued a new card that afternoon at a local branch during my lunch break. And... I don't know if Google Wallet would be any more secure anyway.

Oh... and ever since that security breach at monoprice.com, I refuse to give them my credit/debit card information ever again. They began accepting PayPal right after the incident, so I use PayPal at monoprice.com now. They acknowledged that many of their customers had reported theft of their financial information, but stated that they could not find any evidence of a breach. My card had not been used for a while before or after my monoprice purchase. That, coupled with the fact that so many monoprice customers were complaining about a breach tells me that it was definitely monoprice. To me, their inability to find evidence of a breach is just evidence that they did not have adequate intrusion detection installed on their systems... so I don't trust them with my financial info.

Many merchants, both online and brick-and-mortar, have holes in their security for your financial data... and that's where PCI standards come into play. The banks and their transaction processors have always been very aware of the potential for fraud and theft. But the merchants and their payment processors aren't as diligent. The crazy thing is that the PCI standards dictate that they must be implemented at transaction networks (like my employer) FIRST... even though we are not the ones who have been hacked. Next comes the transaction processing software/hardware that runs at your bank or credit union. Then comes the merchant payment systems... and LAST is the merchant's own systems (website, POS terminals, etc). To me, it seems more logical to start with the place where security breaches occur most frequently (the merchant payment systems)... but I guess that's our political bureaucracy at work.

In the end, PCI standards will require that merchants CANNOT store your credit/debit card information in their databases after the transaction is complete. I don't know about you, but I NEVER choose the option (when the merchant gives me a choice) to store my credit/debit card information so that my future purchases will be more "convenient". The merchant, even though the card information is only stored temporarily to complete the transaction, will be required to encrypt all credit card data in motion and at rest (meaning both the communications AND the fields in their database, even if only stored temporarily) using industry-standard AES-256 encryption... PLUS they'll also have to use an encrypting file system where those database records are stored. All networks and processors between the merchant and your bank will be required to encrypt/delete the information also. Your bank/credit union/financial institution will also be required to follow the same standards of encryption, and most of their employees will be restricted to only be able to see the first 6-digits and last 4-digits of your card number.

As you might imagine, this is a HUGE undertaking. For many years, all communications between each end-point has been encrypted. For example, the communication between the POS terminal and the merchant's payment processor has always been encrypted... as has the communication between the payment processor and the bank's processor, and finally the communication to the bank. But now, the merchant and their payment-processor/network will no longer be allowed to save the data in their systems... and the temporary storage must be double-encrypted... first at the database field level (your PAN, expiration date, CVV code, etc), and second at the file system level. Then, when the bank's processors receive this data, they must encrypt it at both levels too... and remove it from their systems after it has been transmitted to the bank. Finally, the bank must double-encrypt all of the credit/debit card data. All of the parties involved in the transaction must also restrict the ability for their employees to view the full PAN/expiration-date so that only a select few employees have this level of access, and nobody but the cardholder is allowed to know the CVV code or PIN.

Credit/debit card transactions pass through many systems and networks on their trip from the merchant/ATM to the bank. Until recently, the security of the data on some of those networks and systems relied on the good faith of the operator of those networks and systems. Those operators' reputation was at stake... if a large security breach occurred, the operator could go out of business... so they had a financial incentive to make sure the data was secure. Now, in addition to the financial incentives, the force of law requires them to meet very strict security standards, and also requires annual security audits to ensure that all requirements of PCI and several other recently-enacted laws are being met. Basically, this boils down to a simple principle: Many parts of the financial system were once self-governed by "free market" forces. Now, once the PCI standards are fully implemented, your financial data will also be protected by rules, standards, and checks-and-balances that will be continually enforced and revised to meet future challenges.

To be honest, these new regulations really suck for me. But for you, the consumer, they're great things.

[foxwood]

And... don't forget that many of us don't live in large metropolitan areas where they always have access to fast mobile networks and/or WiFi hotspots.

I was in a small town in Western New York over the holidays. No bars on my phone, but 3 open wi-fi hotspots.

(I'm not disagreeing - it was just weird. 300 yards down the road and I probably wouldn't have had any bars, or any wi-fi).

[foxwood]

I like the idea of those credit card scanners that connect to a smartphone (or even an iPod or tablet). If restaurants used those, the waitress would swipe my card right at my table so I could see what she was doing.

In Europe, "Chip & PIN" technology has meant that creditcards are no longer taken from the customer - the customer either pays at the till (inserting or swiping the card themselves) or at a hand held scanner brought to the table.

US Banks are supposed to be introducing this technology in the next year or two, but it may be 6 or 7 years before we will see the full benefits, as the cards still have to have a magnetic strip to work in places where the new equipment isn't available.

As for security... I've only had my credit/debit card information compromised once, due to a security breach at monoprice.com, and I caught the theft the same day, reported it to my bank, and got instant credit to my account. The bank then issued a new card that afternoon at a local branch during my lunch break. And... I don't know if Google Wallet would be any more secure anyway.

Oh... and ever since that security breach at monoprice.com, I refuse to give them my credit/debit card information ever again. They began accepting PayPal right after the incident, so I use PayPal at monoprice.com now. They acknowledged that many of their customers had reported theft of their financial information, but stated that they could not find any evidence of a breach. My card had not been used for a while before or after my monoprice purchase. That, coupled with the fact that so many monoprice customers were complaining about a breach tells me that it was definitely monoprice. To me, their inability to find evidence of a breach is just evidence that they did not have adequate intrusion detection installed on their systems... so I don't trust them with my financial info.

In February 2011 (almost 2 years ago) I got a "backup" credit card. I used that card exactly once - at Pep-Boys, in February 2011. 3 weeks ago, I got a call from Citbank to say that they had declined a suspicous transaction on that card.

It seems unlikely that a "skimmer" would sit on details for 18 months before using them. A more central data breach at Citi or PepBoys would surely have made the news. So I'm left wondering if it was an issue with the RFID chip in the card (the one that you're supposed to be able to wave at the gas pump or checkout at MacDonalds - Citi calls it "Blink"). It's the only card that has that in my wallet.

[barnabas1969]

You'd be surprised at how long your data can sit around before some enterprising thief decides to use it. I'd suspect that your data was stolen from Pep Boys' payment processor. Around that time, there was a huge breach at one of the nation's largest merchant payment processors. It was the largest theft of credit/debit card information in history. It did make the news, but most folks wouldn't have understood how large an impact it had (just for example, it affected every transaction at 7-Eleven stores nationwide, and 7-Eleven was just one of the processor's customers).

When it happened, the payment processor had to give all the banks a list of cards that were compromised. Some banks decided to re-issue new cards (with new PAN's) to replace all of those compromised cards. Other banks decided to wait and only replace the cards if suspicious activity was detected or reported.

As an example, a few years ago, I was searching the Internet trying to find an old friend. What I found was his wife's credit card information posted online, with her date of birth, address, cell phone number, SSN, etc. Her data had been on that site for more than a year. I contacted her bank and they got the site taken down, and then I called her to tell her to have her card replaced. She was unaware.

Her info was part of a much larger list that included thousands of credit/debit cards. The hacker who stole the info must have just posted it online to prove what a great hacker he is.