Will the Echo be compatible with Windows 8?

[Sammy2]

I suppose I was reading WES7 used in STB's and was thinking of MediaRoom. MediaRoom IPTV was sold as indicated above. I am not sure and do now know of other STB's that use WES7 and the associated guide. Nevertheless, M$ can charge for guide service if they desire per the ToS for WMC w/in Win7. I suppose the ToS is the same for WMC in Win8 but do not know.

[richard1980]

You are correct to an extent. Microsoft can discontinue EPG services, and they can charge for EPG services. However, what they can't do is breach a contract (well, technically they can, but there would be consequences). An OEM trying to release STBs would be foolish to attempt selling WMC STBs without some kind of contract guaranteeing that Microsoft will provide EPG services for a minimum period of time. As long as such a contract is in effect, Microsoft can't completely discontinue EPG services. Since Microsoft would be providing EPG services for at least that OEM, it only makes sense for them to continue providing EPG services for W7.

[barnabas1969]

Richard, I respect you... but you're getting deep into speculative territory here.

[Sammy2]

They can't end the free EPG updates due to WES7 (the embedded version of Windows that would be used to create a WMC STB). WES7 is distributable until July 27, 2025.

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

[foxwood]

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

Uncertainty and Market acceptance. Bringing out a W7 based device when there was so much hype about the upcoming W8 would have been a very risky move. Would you buy the Win7 based device when there might be a Win8 based replacement 6 or 10 months down the road?

The viability of any Win7Embedded based Media Center device was left hanging in the balance for months until it was finally clear in March of this year that a Win8 build probably wasn't going to be feasible.

With hindsight, it's easy to say that Ceton should have just gone for it 12 months ago, but if MS had done things differently, we might have a lot of early adopters feeling a little bit disgruntled that they spent $600-$1000 for a device that was outdated withing 9 months.

A Win7 based Q makes more sense now than it did 12 months ago.

[Sammy2]

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

Uncertainty and Market acceptance. Bringing out a W7 based device when there was so much hype about the upcoming W8 would have been a very risky move. Would you buy the Win7 based device when there might be a Win8 based replacement 6 or 10 months down the road?

The viability of any Win7Embedded based Media Center device was left hanging in the balance for months until it was finally clear in March of this year that a Win8 build probably wasn't going to be feasible.

With hindsight, it's easy to say that Ceton should have just gone for it 12 months ago, but if MS had done things differently, we might have a lot of early adopters feeling a little bit disgruntled that they spent $600-$1000 for a device that was outdated withing 9 months.

A Win7 based Q makes more sense now than it did 12 months ago.

100% agree.

[richard1980]

Exactly what benefit would there be to having a W8 based embedded STB vs a W7 based embedded STB?

[foxwood]

Exactly what benefit would there be to having a W8 based embedded STB vs a W7 based embedded STB?

At this point, none.

Last September, we didn't know what we know know. We didn't know that you couldn't easily integrate Metro apps for Hulu or Netflix or whatever new video service comes along into Media Center. We didn't know that many of the metro apps for that type of service would completely ignore the possibility that people might try to use them from a 10' interface with a remote control. We didn't know that Microsoft wasn't going to release a version of Windows 8 Embedded that included WMC. We didn't know that almost 8 months after the release of Windows 8, a lot of people would still be choosing Win7 instead of Win8, when they had that option.

The management at Ceton didn't know any of these things either, so they decided not to go ahead with a major investment in a Win7 based product so soon before Win8 might have just left them in the dust. Even with hindsight, they made the right decision, because their potential customers also didn't know that Win8 wouldn't be all that compelling a platform for a HTPC, and some of them would probably have adopted a wait and see attitude.

The vision for the Q also included a great extender. Even if the Q had been near perfect from Day 1, it would still have been let down by the Echo.

[richard1980]

We didn't know that you couldn't easily integrate Metro apps for Hulu or Netflix or whatever new video service comes along into Media Center. We didn't know that many of the metro apps for that type of service would completely ignore the possibility that people might try to use them from a 10' interface with a remote control.

So the only way to access OTT content is via a Metro app? You don't think Ceton could have developed their own OTT add-ins (or licensed the already-existing add-ins)?

We didn't know that Microsoft wasn't going to release a version of Windows 8 Embedded that included WMC. We didn't know that almost 8 months after the release of Windows 8, a lot of people would still be choosing Win7 instead of Win8, when they had that option.

The Q isn't/wasn't a computer. The Q is/was a set-top-box. I'm not sure if you've got any experience with an embedded STB, but they don't act the same way as a computer. You turn the box on, it loads WMC, and that's it. There's no desktop, no Metro, nothing. It's just WMC. The underlying OS itself is irrelevant because it's never presented to the end-user.

because their potential customers also didn't know that Win8 wouldn't be all that compelling a platform for a HTPC, and some of them would probably have adopted a wait and see attitude.

Same point as above. STB <> HTPC. Don't think about the Q's viability for HTPC users. Think about the Q's viability for STB users.

The vision for the Q also included a great extender. Even if the Q had been near perfect from Day 1, it would still have been let down by the Echo.

I'll certainly agree with that!

[slowbiscuit]

The Q isn't/wasn't a computer. The Q is/was a set-top-box. I'm not sure if you've got any experience with an embedded STB, but they don't act the same way as a computer. You turn the box on, it loads WMC, and that's it. There's no desktop, no Metro, nothing. It's just WMC. The underlying OS itself is irrelevant because it's never presented to the end-user.

Exactly, most users really wouldn't care if it ran 7MC or FubarOS 2000 as long as it was a great DVR w/extenders.

I hear the arguments made about why Win8 invalidated the Q last year and I don't buy them even with the benefit of hindsight. Some of us have been saying this ever since the Q was cancelled (i.e. Win8 should not have been a valid reason not to release the Q with Win7), but we don't know what Ceton's reasoning was nor do we know if their relationship with MS and the (lack of) future for WMC had anything to do with it.

My guess is that they took a look at the potential market considering the box price and their costs and couldn't make the numbers work - by all accounts Tivo, for example, makes most of their money on ancillary stuff and not on the boxes and subs themselves. Ceton doesn't have that income stream from MSO relationships, ads and viewer data, patents, etc.

[Sammy2]

The Q isn't/wasn't a computer. The Q is/was a set-top-box. I'm not sure if you've got any experience with an embedded STB, but they don't act the same way as a computer. You turn the box on, it loads WMC, and that's it. There's no desktop, no Metro, nothing. It's just WMC. The underlying OS itself is irrelevant because it's never presented to the end-user.

Exactly, most users really wouldn't care if it ran 7MC or FubarOS 2000 as long as it was a great DVR w/extenders.

I hear the arguments made about why Win8 invalidated the Q last year and I don't buy them even with the benefit of hindsight. Some of us have been saying this ever since the Q was cancelled (i.e. Win8 should not have been a valid reason not to release the Q with Win7), but we don't know what Ceton's reasoning was nor do we know if their relationship with MS and the (lack of) future for WMC had anything to do with it.

My guess is that they took a look at the potential market considering the box price and their costs and couldn't make the numbers work - by all accounts Tivo, for example, makes most of their money on ancillary stuff and not on the boxes and subs themselves. Ceton doesn't have that income stream from MSO relationships, ads and viewer data, patents, etc.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[adam1991]

They can't end the free EPG updates due to WES7 (the embedded version of Windows that would be used to create a WMC STB). WES7 is distributable until July 27, 2025.

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

Well, I'll dispute the "way beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics" thing. ReplayTV, anyone? We would *still* be using Replay if the cableco hadn't dropped their analog signal for the base lineup.

When something works as well as Replay does at being an appliance that delivers high functionality--and 7MC is as close as you're gonna get to that--then it sticks around for a LONG time.

ReplayTV died because it was hardwired to the analog TV world, which is all but gone now. 7MC as a DVR is not inherently tied to any particular signal, just to the concept of a tuner. As long as there are tuner cards out there for whatever format the cableco sends down the wire, we'll be good to go.

[DarkKaplah]

Ok guys there seems to be some confusion with what an embedded system is here. The reason the Q was canceled was that Microsoft pulled WMC from the Windows 8 Embedded system. An embedded system may have minimal underlying OS in compared to a full operating system, but you still have the basics. You are still fully dependant on the underlying system.

There in lies the problem. The Q could very well work well with Win7 WMC. The issue isn't that software wise the Q could be loaded up to match the test systems and released. The issue is that legally Ceton could not do this. When Win8 embedded was released Ceton could no longer release a package with Win7 embedded. Microsoft would not sell the licenses. Now on desktop systems Win8 has been such a foobar that we can easily purchase desktops and laptops with Windows 7 with no further expense the same is not true for companies that use Windows Embedded. The only way for us to get the Q is for M$ to pull their head out of their behind and either add WMC to Windows 8 embedded, or change their license package and start selling Win7 embedded again.

I suspect M$ is killing wmc off entirely or rolling a new package into the new xbox. Tomorrow we'll get some more clarity as to what they are planning.

[slowbiscuit]

I'd like to see some proof that MS won't sell licenses for 7MC Embedded, because I've also heard that argument and it's been refuted before.

[Sammy2]

Ok guys there seems to be some confusion with what an embedded system is here. The reason the Q was canceled was that Microsoft pulled WMC from the Windows 8 Embedded system. An embedded system may have minimal underlying OS in compared to a full operating system, but you still have the basics. You are still fully dependant on the underlying system.

There in lies the problem. The Q could very well work well with Win7 WMC. The issue isn't that software wise the Q could be loaded up to match the test systems and released. The issue is that legally Ceton could not do this. When Win8 embedded was released Ceton could no longer release a package with Win7 embedded. Microsoft would not sell the licenses. Now on desktop systems Win8 has been such a foobar that we can easily purchase desktops and laptops with Windows 7 with no further expense the same is not true for companies that use Windows Embedded. The only way for us to get the Q is for M$ to pull their head out of their behind and either add WMC to Windows 8 embedded, or change their license package and start selling Win7 embedded again.

I suspect M$ is killing wmc off entirely or rolling a new package into the new xbox. Tomorrow we'll get some more clarity as to what they are planning.

We've been down this road a few times but why does ceton even need to use WES in any form at all?

[richard1980]

When Win8 embedded was released Ceton could no longer release a package with Win7 embedded. Microsoft would not sell the licenses.

Before posting, you really should know what you are talking about.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedde ... ycles.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedde ... loads.aspx

[Sammy2]

They can't end the free EPG updates due to WES7 (the embedded version of Windows that would be used to create a WMC STB). WES7 is distributable until July 27, 2025.

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

Well, I'll dispute the "way beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics" thing. ReplayTV, anyone? We would *still* be using Replay if the cableco hadn't dropped their analog signal for the base lineup.

When something works as well as Replay does at being an appliance that delivers high functionality--and 7MC is as close as you're gonna get to that--then it sticks around for a LONG time.

ReplayTV died because it was hardwired to the analog TV world, which is all but gone now. 7MC as a DVR is not inherently tied to any particular signal, just to the concept of a tuner. As long as there are tuner cards out there for whatever format the cableco sends down the wire, we'll be good to go.

The point is that ReplayTV died! I don't have a single piece of equipment in my system that I had 5 years ago right now and I usually hang on to stuff for quite some time. That said, I'll probably keep going with what I have now for another 5 years at least with exception of my TV. That is in need of an upgrade but only based on the fact that it is a mere 40" which in 2008 was pretty big for my budget at a whooping $2500.

[choliscott]

Ahh yes ReplayTV... Something I still have 3 in use & trying to get rid of, however the child hates WMC with a passion & the wife refuses to allow me to return the cable boxes for the 2 she still uses for "backup" recording. What's annoying is that about every 4 months, I hear the cable bill is too high, but when I mention that returning the two boxes will knock another $20 off the bill, apparently we can afford that.

They can't end the free EPG updates due to WES7 (the embedded version of Windows that would be used to create a WMC STB). WES7 is distributable until July 27, 2025.

Which brings a totally different point. Why would the Q be cancelled? It was noted that WES8 was not including the code for WMC but if WES7 is good for twelve more years, why not bring out the Q? That is WAY beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics these days and plenty of time for ceton to realize an return on their investment.

Well, I'll dispute the "way beyond the lifespan of consumer electronics" thing. ReplayTV, anyone? We would *still* be using Replay if the cableco hadn't dropped their analog signal for the base lineup.

When something works as well as Replay does at being an appliance that delivers high functionality--and 7MC is as close as you're gonna get to that--then it sticks around for a LONG time.

ReplayTV died because it was hardwired to the analog TV world, which is all but gone now. 7MC as a DVR is not inherently tied to any particular signal, just to the concept of a tuner. As long as there are tuner cards out there for whatever format the cableco sends down the wire, we'll be good to go.

[DarkKaplah]

When Win8 embedded was released Ceton could no longer release a package with Win7 embedded. Microsoft would not sell the licenses.

Before posting, you really should know what you are talking about.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedde ... ycles.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedde ... loads.aspx

I'm just going off of what I've read from Engadget, Cnet, and other sites. I still would bet that licensing is the issue here. From all of the reviews I've read the DVR was completed hardware wise. Microsoft may have licensing availability listed for a range of dates on a certain product, but try to go and purchase any of those legacy product licenses at volume.

[richard1980]

It's always best to go straight to the source for the truth rather than depending on a 3rd party that may or may not know what they are talking about. Here's an example of a good source: http://www.bsquare.com/products/microso ... -licensing.