Hey Stinky,
Beware of going the combiner route with 2 antennas pointed in different directions. I have my antennas here pointed about 90 degrees apart to get the Buffalo NY & Toronto markets. Using a combiner caused havoc on some channels. I sorted it out by giving each antenna its own HDhomerun.
Cheers, Al.
Record OTA?
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dmagerl
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I wouldnt use a combiner either. I had nothing but trouble when I did it. I also wouldnt use a rotor because that screws up recordings when the rotor is pointed in the wrong direction.
I used to give each antenna its own tuner and that worked for years but it was a real PITA when setting up WMC.
And then I found this device:
https://www.televes.com/en/catalog/prod ... egory/761/
Its a programmable amp with 4 antenna inputs. You can turn individual channels on/off and even shift them to different frequencies to resolve interference issues. Its pricey, around $450, but if you're serious about combining antennas, this is the way to go. The only issue with it is it needs a good signal to work with. It doesnt do well with marginal signals.
There's a thread over on AVSForum discussing it.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/avant- ... s.3164240/
I used to give each antenna its own tuner and that worked for years but it was a real PITA when setting up WMC.
And then I found this device:
https://www.televes.com/en/catalog/prod ... egory/761/
Its a programmable amp with 4 antenna inputs. You can turn individual channels on/off and even shift them to different frequencies to resolve interference issues. Its pricey, around $450, but if you're serious about combining antennas, this is the way to go. The only issue with it is it needs a good signal to work with. It doesnt do well with marginal signals.
There's a thread over on AVSForum discussing it.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/avant- ... s.3164240/
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StinkyImp
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Excellent work! I love it and I'm a bit jealous!
I created this username using a random name generator because I thought I'd only login once and then discard it. Now I wish I could change it...
Right now I'm in the "theoretical" and fact finding phase of this operation. I won't know anything concrete until I fly there later this year and do some real world experiments onsite. Based on conversations with them they're leaning heavily toward:alhaunts wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:48 am Beware of going the combiner route with 2 antennas pointed in different directions. I have my antennas here pointed about 90 degrees apart to get the Buffalo NY & Toronto markets. Using a combiner caused havoc on some channels. I sorted it out by giving each antenna its own HDhomerun.
Antenna -> Tablo Quad -> Roku
This requires demands that they have reliable OTA reception. Everything hinges on this.
dmagerl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:43 pmI wouldnt use a combiner either. I had nothing but trouble when I did it. I also wouldnt use a rotor because that screws up recordings when the rotor is pointed in the wrong direction.
I used to give each antenna its own tuner and that worked for years but it was a real PITA when setting up WMC.
A combiner is now OUT of the equation. Thank you both for sharing your experiences! I'm leaning heavily toward the Lava (or other) omni-directional antenna because in Gary's scenario he's receiving signals from every direction and one of them is close to 80 miles away. The Tablo won't work correctly if it can't receive the station it wants to view or record.
WMC (or Plex, Kodi, NextPVR, etc) is another non-starter. They don't want any computers, just something simple.
Some of their requirements are reasonable, but others put restrictions that complicate matters.
NO external antenna(s) or rotors
NO computers or software solutions
MUST be simple
MUST work similarly to a cable subscription
dmagerl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:43 pmAnd then I found this device:
https://www.televes.com/en/catalog/prod ... egory/761/
Its a programmable amp with 4 antenna inputs. You can turn individual channels on/off and even shift them to different frequencies to resolve interference issues. Its pricey, around $450, but if you're serious about combining antennas, this is the way to go. The only issue with it is it needs a good signal to work with. It doesnt do well with marginal signals.
This is excellent information! I'm setting up a test environment here to see if the Antenna -> Tablo -> Roku is going to provide what they'll be satisfied with. If not... back to the drawing board. In the end it may be a totally different solution, maybe even WMC.
Right now OTA reception from a single source is the linchpin. Any viewing/recording solution can be built on that foundation.
OMW!
Any other input, insights, tips and tricks, experiences, or warnings are welcome!
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alhaunts
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If the antenna must be indoors and omni-directional, you have a tough road ahead. Figure on a 10 dB or greater signal loss from not being directional and more loss by being indoors which varies wildly due to roofing materials, height above terrain, etc. A pre-amp will not help if the signal is at or near the noise floor. Do a TV Fool report of the location and look at the Noise Margins of the channels they want to receive. That should give you a better idea if what you want to do is within the realm of possibility.
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dmagerl
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An omni directional antenna should be ruled to too. Its the same as combined antennas. When skip comes in, and it will what with the tighter station spacing after the repack, you want to reject any signal that is not coming from the direction you want. An omni antenna wont do that, as wont combined antennas. There is no front to back or front to side rejection of any cochannel interference. It becomes really important on those days when atmospheric ducting is playing havoc with signals. Here in the Chicago area, thats most of the spring, summer, and fall.
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stuartm
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Antenna combining can work. I currently have 4 attic mounted antennas that get combined into a single lead in cable. They point in 3 different directions. (directional antennas) 3 UHF and 1 VHF. they are pointed 90 deg. apart. I am probably lucky it all works but I would try it and see if it works and not just assume it won't.
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StinkyImp
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The more I research their reception landscape the more I realize I'm the "victim of my own success" (and my location).
I.E... I created my own monster.
I'm sure you've all been there. You have visitors that see your HTPC and marvel at its elegance. Little knowing the days, weeks, months, and years you've painstakingly tinkered and fine tuned it into the polished display they admire.
I have the blessing/curse of living in an area where all the transmission towers are located in a single area and pointing a directional antenna toward it yields in excess of a hundred channels. This is what they've seen over the years and this isn't what they have available in their area. If they're lucky they can receive 35, maybe 40, stations. Eight of those being PBS affiliates.
The real challenge for them is terrain. Where I'm located it's perfectly flat. When I put up my antenna, all I needed to do was manually sight down the backbone toward the flashing red lights 30+ miles away, tighten it down, and be done with it.
In their area one of the local towers is around 10 miles from them. The heatmap for that channel indicates they would only receive a marginal signal if they had a directional antenna more than 50 feet off the ground. Another tower is around 40 miles away and can receive an excellent signal with an attic antenna. Their local CBS affiliate is a no-go under any circumstance.
I really hate to waste their money on something that won't get them what they want (or may not even work). Although by saving $180 per month... their breakeven for $1,000 in expenditures would be around six months. That doesn't work if they can't receive signal.
So that's the challenge.
I.E... I created my own monster.
I'm sure you've all been there. You have visitors that see your HTPC and marvel at its elegance. Little knowing the days, weeks, months, and years you've painstakingly tinkered and fine tuned it into the polished display they admire.
I have the blessing/curse of living in an area where all the transmission towers are located in a single area and pointing a directional antenna toward it yields in excess of a hundred channels. This is what they've seen over the years and this isn't what they have available in their area. If they're lucky they can receive 35, maybe 40, stations. Eight of those being PBS affiliates.
The real challenge for them is terrain. Where I'm located it's perfectly flat. When I put up my antenna, all I needed to do was manually sight down the backbone toward the flashing red lights 30+ miles away, tighten it down, and be done with it.
In their area one of the local towers is around 10 miles from them. The heatmap for that channel indicates they would only receive a marginal signal if they had a directional antenna more than 50 feet off the ground. Another tower is around 40 miles away and can receive an excellent signal with an attic antenna. Their local CBS affiliate is a no-go under any circumstance.
I really hate to waste their money on something that won't get them what they want (or may not even work). Although by saving $180 per month... their breakeven for $1,000 in expenditures would be around six months. That doesn't work if they can't receive signal.
So that's the challenge.
Would you mind sharing specific details about the equipment you're using? I appreciate your experience and insight!stuartm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:15 am Antenna combining can work. I currently have 4 attic mounted antennas that get combined into a single lead in cable. They point in 3 different directions. (directional antennas) 3 UHF and 1 VHF. they are pointed 90 deg. apart. I am probably lucky it all works but I would try it and see if it works and not just assume it won't.
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StinkyImp
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Question for anyone:
How much does the mileage rating on an antenna affect its performance, like a 75 mile versus a 200 mile?
How much does the mileage rating on an antenna affect its performance, like a 75 mile versus a 200 mile?
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stuartm
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Well, there is no such thing as a 200 mile antenna. What you really want to look at to compare antennas is the gain for the different frequencies (the channels you are trying to capture)
As far as specific equipment. I use a dedicated high VHF antenna for the local VHF stations and I prefer bow-tie arrays for UHF aimed at the transmission sources.
e.g. I have two of these https://www.amazon.com/STELLAR-30-2431- ... 911&sr=8-2
One has the two sides at 90 deg. apart aimed at the stronger close local UHF sources and the other with both halves aimed to pick up a source 60 mi. away. I combine with a simple coax splitter combuner. Then my seperate VHF hi antenna is combined in with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I use a low noise amp on the UHF side before the diplexer because of the distant UHF source and 60 ft run to my distribution amp. The VHF source is close enough that it does not need amplification. This all goes into a distribution amp in the garage where the signal is then split into 4 different rooms via in-wall coax. Antennas Direct has a fairly equivalent antenna as well (more expensive). I would stay away from antennas with built-in amps and only add amps where/when necessary.
As far as specific equipment. I use a dedicated high VHF antenna for the local VHF stations and I prefer bow-tie arrays for UHF aimed at the transmission sources.
e.g. I have two of these https://www.amazon.com/STELLAR-30-2431- ... 911&sr=8-2
One has the two sides at 90 deg. apart aimed at the stronger close local UHF sources and the other with both halves aimed to pick up a source 60 mi. away. I combine with a simple coax splitter combuner. Then my seperate VHF hi antenna is combined in with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I use a low noise amp on the UHF side before the diplexer because of the distant UHF source and 60 ft run to my distribution amp. The VHF source is close enough that it does not need amplification. This all goes into a distribution amp in the garage where the signal is then split into 4 different rooms via in-wall coax. Antennas Direct has a fairly equivalent antenna as well (more expensive). I would stay away from antennas with built-in amps and only add amps where/when necessary.
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garyan2
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Just stumbled on this to show receive strength of all channels at a specific location. https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps
Might help in determining how much gain you are going to need.
Might help in determining how much gain you are going to need.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
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StinkyImp
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Thank you both for these very enlightening and useful posts!
Based on the FCC website the reception footprint (at their exact coordinates) can be captured through two cones. The green cone would capture the towers to the north and the yellow cone would capture the towers to the south. The cone colors are used for demarcation and have nothing to do with signal strength.
Site mockup
Based on Gary mentioning how changing his location (a little) would improve his reception, I moved the coordinates 1200 ft west and the difference was evident. Maybe uprooting their lives is the solution?
@ stuartm -> It appears that one of the antennas you're using would be suitable in their scenario. One side pointing to the north cone and the other to the south. No combiner required but... would I need a separate VHF antenna and therefore a combiner?
I'm no antenna expert by a long shot. Before cable was even a thing we had a 60 ft tower with an antenna at the top that we turned with a ChannelMaster rotor. It picked up anything available on 2-13 (VHF) and 14+ (UHF). The Amazon Q&A is all over the place... It can't receive VHF at all and it can't receive VHF Lo (and it can't receive alien transmissions).
This has become the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes. I always thought you could simply plug a metal object into your TV and (based on the direction it was pointed) get any TV signals, regardless of frequency, that were floating around in the air as long as your tuner could tune it. This antenna says its frequency range is 460 ~ 862Mhz which is UHF only. Will it also pick up VHF frequencies? It's not really clear. In their case, channel 16 (VHF Lo) has 10 subchannels.
The cheapo antenna I threw up on my roof captures everything, but my stations exist only on VHF Hi and UHF, plus FM radio.
Based on the FCC website the reception footprint (at their exact coordinates) can be captured through two cones. The green cone would capture the towers to the north and the yellow cone would capture the towers to the south. The cone colors are used for demarcation and have nothing to do with signal strength.
Site mockup
Based on Gary mentioning how changing his location (a little) would improve his reception, I moved the coordinates 1200 ft west and the difference was evident. Maybe uprooting their lives is the solution?
@ stuartm -> It appears that one of the antennas you're using would be suitable in their scenario. One side pointing to the north cone and the other to the south. No combiner required but... would I need a separate VHF antenna and therefore a combiner?
I'm no antenna expert by a long shot. Before cable was even a thing we had a 60 ft tower with an antenna at the top that we turned with a ChannelMaster rotor. It picked up anything available on 2-13 (VHF) and 14+ (UHF). The Amazon Q&A is all over the place... It can't receive VHF at all and it can't receive VHF Lo (and it can't receive alien transmissions).
This has become the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes. I always thought you could simply plug a metal object into your TV and (based on the direction it was pointed) get any TV signals, regardless of frequency, that were floating around in the air as long as your tuner could tune it. This antenna says its frequency range is 460 ~ 862Mhz which is UHF only. Will it also pick up VHF frequencies? It's not really clear. In their case, channel 16 (VHF Lo) has 10 subchannels.
The cheapo antenna I threw up on my roof captures everything, but my stations exist only on VHF Hi and UHF, plus FM radio.
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stuartm
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The antenna I linked is a UHF only. I use a seperate antenna for my local VHF Hi stations (there are really no local VHF Lo in my area). One resource I find useful is this one. http://dennysantennaservice.com/ e.g. for your application a pair of their EZ-HD antennas might be a workable solution. My VHF-hi antenna is one of their VHF-hi units (half of their HD stacker antenna). I am hesitant to recommend specific solutions as I am not an antenna expert and I got my working setup mostly thru trial and error 
Also on a side note AIUI you are in Arizona. Be very cautious working in an attic especially when it's hot, attic temperatures can be extreme.
Also on a side note AIUI you are in Arizona. Be very cautious working in an attic especially when it's hot, attic temperatures can be extreme.
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StinkyImp
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Thank you so much for that resource! He has a couple of recommendations for cities 15-30 miles farther south than my relative. The reviews from those cities are very favorable!stuartm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:11 pmOne resource I find useful is this one. http://dennysantennaservice.com/
Also on a side note AIUI you are in Arizona. Be very cautious working in an attic especially when it's hot, attic temperatures can be extreme.
You understand correctly. My infrastructure has been installed for years so there won't be any crawling around in my attic. My relative lives on the East Coast so that's where the attic work will be taking place. They have a huge attic that can be walked around in (so it won't be cramped) and a fan by the entry kept it bearable when I was pulling CAT-6 a few years ago.
I think I'm done "rabbit holing" on this for the time being. For now I'm going to have them drive around their neighborhood (and the neighborhoods in close proximity) taking pictures of houses with antennas. I won't start back in earnest until I'm actually onsite.
A warm THANK YOU to everyone that participated in my (currently) theoretical project!
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garyan2
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Now that's an understatement. At least we're getting some cloud cover now that "monsoon" season has started bringing the outside temperatures to a chilly 100F! Of course, where @StinkyImp is, they are usually 10-15F hotter than where I am.
I put "monsoon" in quotes because monsoon here is nothing like monsoon in Panama.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
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StinkyImp
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Hi Gary!
I think you'll find this interesting.
I'm located approximately 120 miles (as the crow flies) north of your city center. This next part has me doing a double and triple take because of the terrain within that distance.
I received my "refurbished" testing Tablo last night and plugged it into my antenna with one of those cheap slip-on coax patch cables. I let it scan and found it strange because it said it found ~110 channels. The instructions said it would need several minutes per channel to download the initial guide. Under that guidance I figured it would take over three hours so I left it running overnight.
As I've mentioned before, I have a cheap $35 yagi (rated at 75 miles) pointed at my local towers. Even so, I was surprised to find the following channels, including their subchannels, in the live TV grid.
- Channel 4 (KVOA)
- Channel 6 (KUAT)
- Channel 9 (KGUN)
- Channel 18 (KTTU)
This morning I tuned these channels in the Tablo for about 10 minutes each and found that the first three were as clear as a bell and smooth as glass. In short, they were absolutely perfect! The only exception was channel 18. It would be crystal clear and then pixellate. It would do this about every 20 seconds so it's not a reliable signal.
One. Hundred. Twenty Miles! This little experiment, plus all the discussion and pointers, makes me VERY optimistic about my upcoming project!
As a side note... When my HTPC becomes technologically infeasible, I'd be more than satisfied with the "Antenna -> Tablo -> Roku" setup as a replacement.
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garyan2
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That's pretty impressive. Not sure if it will last... I think the weather conditions are favorable right now. Is the Tablo's tuner that much better with low signal? If so, that is really impressive.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
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StinkyImp
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I agree with the weather conditions. Even so I've never received any other stations from there. When it was going through its initial channel scan, all the channels (with a few exceptions) came back solid green on signal strength.
Just checked again. All channels except KGUN (which is still perfect) show a weak signal failure. I would say the Tablo tuners are more forgiving of weak signals because my Hauppauge tuners and my TVs don't receive as well as this Tablo. Of course this is purely anecdotal based on a very short test time. I'll keep my eye on it and see.
So far the experiment is a resounding success!
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garyan2
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KGUN9 is VHF, so probably why it is still hanging in there. Regardless, it is still impressive.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io
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StinkyImp
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@stuartmstuartm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:11 pmOne resource I find useful is this one. http://dennysantennaservice.com/
@dmagerl
@garyan2
@EVERYONE
I finally have everything on the way and will most likely start the install within the next few weeks. Any last minute suggestions so I avoid any potential "Oooops! I should have done this" pitfalls?
I've never done an attic install so I'm hoping to avoid the time consuming install > UN-install > RE-install dilemma.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience!
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stuartm
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Only advice I can offer are things you already probably know. When working in the attic don't fall thru the rafters
I found it helpful to take a compass in there with me (and know what bearing you need) to help get the antenna aimed properly.
If your cable run is fairly long you may need a pre-amp at the antenna. Be mindful of what type of roofing you are under. (i.e. better not be metal) and avoid mounting near any large metal attic/roof devices (swamp coolers, A/C heat exchangers, etc.)
I found it helpful to take a compass in there with me (and know what bearing you need) to help get the antenna aimed properly.
If your cable run is fairly long you may need a pre-amp at the antenna. Be mindful of what type of roofing you are under. (i.e. better not be metal) and avoid mounting near any large metal attic/roof devices (swamp coolers, A/C heat exchangers, etc.)