Windows 7 Embedded in new devices

[Mashman]

It also seems to me that since the XBox 360 acts as an extender, not the XBox One, that Microsoft is abandoning extenders entirely. Without extenders, an HTPC running WMC becomes much less useful (since it can only connect to one TV in a household and only play one program at a time). This would also, I think, adversely impact not only Ceton's tuner, but Silicon Dust's tuner. That'll leave TiVO as the only viable alternative to cable DVRs (discounting for the moment those people who are satisfied with Netflix, Amazon, and other streaming services). Perhaps this will be incentive to develop an independent program that duplicates WMC and incorporates a DRM stack like Playready.

Microsoft is abandoning extenders, because they will no longer be needed. The movement is to DLNA, not a tuner tied to a PC. The functionality previously performed by a WMC in feeding an extender, will be provided by a DMS. Extenders no longer make sense. Instead of an extender that is tied to a WMC, you buy a BDPlayer (or a smart tv, or a AVP or some other consumer device), it has the added streaming services you mentioned, and when DTCP compliant, also recieves TV service from you DMS, so it can perform as a PVR.

I don't know about Ceton, but Silicondust's prime is already a DMS, so it can stream TV service to DTCP clients. The only problem is that the current versions stream heavy MPEG2, which limits the usefulness, the next version will have hardware transcoding that will allow h264 streaming. I image that Ceton is developing this ability also.

[Dean L. Surkin]

Respectfully, I don't think the streaming service can take the place of recording copy-protected cable programs and playing them back on multiple screens using extenders(for example, my cable provider is Cablevision/Optimum, and they copy-protect every thing). I think the reason Microsoft is abandoning extenders is because they want to eventually sell a streaming service like Netflix.

[kingwr]

The movement is to DLNA

I have heard "the movement is to" statement so many times in the last 15 years, pardon me if a I reserve judgment until it actually moves somewhere. It seems to me that the movement as far as Microsoft is concerned has been backwards. I use to have a Microsoft-based native DVR for my DirecTV service hat had a built-in web browser. Now, the only thing Microsoft can offer me is a second STB that hooks to my DirecTV STB via an HDMI overlay and IR blaster and that gives me no control over DVR functionality.

[jeonunh]

Respectfully, I don't think the streaming service can take the place of recording copy-protected cable programs and playing them back on multiple screens using extenders(for example, my cable provider is Cablevision/Optimum, and they copy-protect every thing). I think the reason Microsoft is abandoning extenders is because they want to eventually sell a streaming service like Netflix.

You are 100% correct that nothing will ever replace the quality and flexibility of recorded tv. The quality of streaming is getting better, but still not as good as cable/dish/ota, and won't be until we're all running on Google Fiber in 100 years. The unfortunate truth is that many people are joining the "cut the cord" movement which will leave the remaining customers with ever increasing cable bills as companies like Comcast try to keep growing revenue with less customers. With less cable customers, there will be less market for DVR's, and less choices.

The reason that MS is jumping out is simple. They always tend to see themselves as being ahead of the curve. Bill Gates proclaimed the future of computing would be tablets YEARS ahead of the iPad revolution. He also felt that Bluray would fail as everyone switched to digital delivery. So far he's been right, but his timing has been way off. I guess when you have a $80 billion you forget that the average American is still trying to get a decent high speed internet connection.

[barnabas1969]

And yet they still continue selling them like everything is cool...

Hey, they have a warehouse full of the things. They spent a bunch of money developing them, and probably even more to build them. They have to clear out the inventory or else they'll be in a deep hole with the product.

Wow - a new openness from Ceton, Eric? You could've explained this long ago in any of the Q threads btw.
Can you explain why you've abandoned further updates for the Echo too?

They're "working hard", don't you remember? We just don't know what, exactly, they're working on. But... even though I'm not exactly a Ceton fan, I can't imagine that they will never release some fixes for the Echo's multiple problems. That would be shameful and unforgivable. I did expect those fixes sooner though.

I will never buy another Ceton product. I don't care if its Q etc etc.. Just my opinion...

What? I thought your Echos work perfectly now. What happened?

I stand by my earlier predictions...

And people call me crazy?

Can the Roku, for example, wirelessly stream HD content at sufficient quality?

You folks need to remember that Internet streaming services (Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, etc) are all buffered. Media Center doesn't buffer (well, at least not very much, and definitely not in a way that lost packets can be re-transmitted more than a few milliseconds after the first transmission)... so any comparison between a Media Center extender and a Roku/AppleTV/etc. really don't apply.

Microsoft is abandoning extenders, because they will no longer be needed. The movement is to DLNA

Keep dreaming, but that isn't going to happen. First, there is only one DLNA client today that also supports DTCP/IP. That's the PS3. I don't know if the PS4 will support it, but it might. And... even on the PS3, the interface sucks... there is no guide data... and no recording capability. What makes you think that DLNA is the future of HTPC?

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As far as the "Q" is concerned... based on my experience with the Echo, I would never, ever, buy a "Q" or similar product from Ceton. They missed the mark by such a wide margin on the Echo that I could never trust them with my money on such a product in the future. I understand what Eric wrote here though. We all know that Media Center has some bugs and odd quirks. The average consumer wouldn't live with those bugs... so, if the "Q" was based on Media Center... with no possibility of ever getting those bugs/quirks fixed by Microsoft... the average consumer would crucify Ceton, even if they didn't make the same egregious mistakes that they made with the Echo.

What I really hope to see in the next few years... is a new Windows-based product similar to Media Center that includes support for various tuners (including ATSC, CableCARD, and DVB-T/S/C) that makes use of the already-CableLabs-approved Microsoft PlayReady DRM scheme for CableCARD. This would require a company to spend the money necessary to license PlayReady, which is MUCH, MUCH cheaper than getting a separate CableLabs certification. The solution would also need to incorporate means for playback of local content as well as streaming Internet resources... and a hardware and/or software solution so that it could be easily streamed around the house to multiple TV's, similar to the "extender" concept.

I do believe that this is possible. And, I hope that a company who already has a stake (like Silicondust) will develop it.

Broadcast television, whether it be Over-The-Air, Cable, or Satellite, is not going away anytime in the near future. At least not for the next 10 years. Streaming media will definitely grow over that period, and may eventually replace broadcast television... so the smart thing is to develop a platform which will work well in either environment. Media Center could have filled that need... but Microsoft chose to go in a different direction. They were ahead of their time with Windows XP Media Center Edition, and lost interest at precisely the moment when their product could have shone above the rest.

Media Center has always been and still is a small fraction of Microsoft's revenue. How many licenses of Windows have been sold solely for the purpose of building an HTPC? Then, of those, how many were solely because of Media Center? I'm sure the number is small compared to the number of Windows licenses that have been sold in total.

My point is that Microsoft is not in the business of selling software for HTPC's. At most, it was a distraction for them. They spent significant resources on it, and probably lost money on the venture. Now, they have refocused their efforts on selling operating systems and other things like games and movies that bring recurring revenue. The game consoles are merely a device with which to access their other revenue streams... games, movies, music, etc.

What we really need, is a company to build a software package similar to Media Center. That software package would need to build on the strengths of Windows, which is the most popular operating system in the world. It would need to support PlayReady in order to support CableCARD in North America, but it would also need the ability to export the stream (with DRM) to mobile devices, which is possible today... but no company has implemented that yet. It would need to support as many tuners as possible, and would benefit from support of things like DiSEqC 2.2. It would need to include support for (and a revenue stream from) Internet sources such as Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, Amazon, and others.

That company will need to pony-up the money for licensing of the technologies, and the willingness to invest in the development of the hardware/software to achieve the goal... which is profit.

So far, the only such company is TiVo. And, their pricing structure is unattractive to many of us (including me... now).

Honestly, if TiVo had the Roamio and Mini when I first got into Media Center 32 months ago... I would have bought it in a heartbeat... even at today's prices of those products. I spent somewhere between $2500-2800 on my Media Center system, including extenders and software. That serves 5 TV's. If I bought a Roamio Pro and four Mini's with lifetime service, that's $2100. Granted, the Pro has 3TB of storage space compared to my 4TB... and it has 6 CableCARD tuners compared to my 6 CableCARD plus 4 ATSC/QAM tuners... but I think I would have chosen the Roamio if it was available in 2011.

Their "Premier" system that was available at the time... with the limitation of only being able to "copy" (vs. "stream") recordings between devices (and then only non-copy-protected shows) caused me to look elsewhere.

The only thing TiVo lacks today... now that I've gotten used to having 10 tuners (6 CableCARD + 4 ATSC/QAM) is an integrated recording schedule between multiple Roamio DVR's. If they allowed me to have a Roamio Pro, plus a Roamio (base, with ATSC tuners)... and those two devices could have an integrated recording schedule... plus 3 "Mini's"... I might switch today!

So... somebody needs to compete with TiVo. The foundation exists in Media Center. A company with the means needs to buy the rights to Media Center, and continue development. That company might have a chance.

I know... I'm dreaming... but, you can't blame a guy for hoping, can you?

[hmmurdock]

That's a good question... I guess it's a moot point though unless someone decides to design a wireless extender. I wouldn't hold my breath.

You mean besides the X-Box 360?

[Matteo009]

Microsoft has taken several steps back. I understand that Mediacenter is a small portion of their business but with my shiny new xbox one can't play my stored movie library. Play to is so lame! I don't understand why they tout the XB1 as a complete media hub. XB1 is half baked! I own a lot of cetons gear. I think they need to develop an XB1 app to stream from the 6 eth. My movies needs to make an app as well. I love Mediacenter with ceton and my movies. My biggest complaint to the echo is that it doesn't have the codec to play movies stored using my movies. I had to replace the echo with a linksys extender that was built in 1986. It can't be that hard to add support for the codecs needed to do what I want. I will continue to support ceton if they come with something good; hurry up. No updates to my ceton gear in several months. Get working guys!!! Give people a sneak peak!

Matt

[Dean L. Surkin]

No updates to my ceton gear in several months. Get working guys!!! Give people a sneak peak!

Your phrase "sneak peak" got me wondering: Ceton, will you at least tell us what your plans are for the Echo? What fixes are in the queue?

[Bill]

The plan is to dump their remaining stock and move on. There's no fixes in queue, there's no updates, and thus nothing to post about.

[barnabas1969]

The plan is to dump their remaining stock and move on. There's no fixes in queue, there's no updates, and thus nothing to post about.

It's beginning to seem that way. I really thought they would fix the bugs, even if they can't do Android on it. It's been a long, long time since there was a firmware update.

[Dean L. Surkin]

The plan is to dump their remaining stock and move on. There's no fixes in queue, there's no updates, and thus nothing to post about.

It's beginning to seem that way. I really thought they would fix the bugs, even if they can't do Android on it. It's been a long, long time since there was a firmware update.

I agree with barnabas1969 and Bill.

[kingwr]

The plan is to dump their remaining stock and move on. There's no fixes in queue, there's no updates, and thus nothing to post about.

It's beginning to seem that way. I really thought they would fix the bugs, even if they can't do Android on it. It's been a long, long time since there was a firmware update.

It's been a long, long time since Ceton announced that Android was dead -- 4 months with nary a word. Hopefully no one is still holding out hope that firmware updates for V1 Echo will be forthcoming.

[Matteo009]

It pains me to say that I just bought my wife a Tivo Roamio plus and a Tivo mini. I own everything ceton has but I can't get her to use it like she does her Tivo. At least Tivo is continuing to support there products with updates and such. I will continue to use ceton with Mediacenter in hopes that it doesn't die on the vine.

[barnabas1969]

It pains me to say that I just bought my wife a Tivo Roamio plus and a Tivo mini. I own everything ceton has but I can't get her to use it like she does her Tivo. At least Tivo is continuing to support there products with updates and such. I will continue to use ceton with Mediacenter in hopes that it doesn't die on the vine.

Wow. You just wasted a BUNCH of money. You should have... 1) replaced your Echo's with XBox 360's for extenders, 2) replaced your tuners with Silicondust HD HomeRun PRIME tuners.

If #1 didn't solve all your problems, then move on to #2. Even if you had to do both, it would have been cheaper than TiVo.

[STC]

^ A little harsh?

TiVo has its place. I love the unified search feature and switch on and forget. No tweaking/setup/troubleshooting, you just watch TV. I have my eyes on a similar setup in the future. Perhaps the member has cash to spend on whatever he and his wife wants?

Also it must be really nice to have a his and hers setup
It pains me to go through recorded TV when it's full of junk shows my wife records

*jealous*

[slowbiscuit]

I have exactly that, a his and hers. But in my case the Tivo Elite is mine and she uses WMC w/extenders (Xboxes and a Linksys). She has no complaints about it.

[barnabas1969]

^ A little harsh?

TiVo has its place. I love the unified search feature and switch on and forget. No tweaking/setup/troubleshooting, you just watch TV. I have my eyes on a similar setup in the future. Perhaps the member has cash to spend on whatever he and his wife wants?

Also it must be really nice to have a his and hers setup
It pains me to go through recorded TV when it's full of junk shows my wife records

*jealous*

My point was that he just dumped the whole WMC setup. I'm sure the TiVo setup works fine, but perhaps part his problem is this:

I own everything ceton has

Maybe he should have tried swapping out some components before ditching the whole thing?

[STC]

He hasn't dumped it, he still uses it.