Watch Live TV unstable - PC reboots

[RobsterUK]

Hi Guys,

System Spec:
AMD A-10 5700
AsRock FM2A75M-ITX
Crucial 8GB DDR3
TBS 6981 PCI-E DVBS-2 (UK FreeSat)
Intel SSD 80GB
WD 750GB mSATA
Slot load BD-ROM
Pico PSU 160W with 200W brick
Streacom FC7 Evo Case

Win7 x64 Ultimate
WMC
Media Browser
Guide Tool
My Channel Logos
WMC Customized with Media Center Studio
Tuner Free WMC
TMT 6


I'm not sure if the issue I'm experiencing is software related or not, so thought I'd try in here to see what you experienced WMC users think.

This issue has happened a few random times before but not to the extent I experienced last night.

Issue:
Watching Live TV causes PC to have a dirty shutdown. ie, PC just shuts off, and instantly reboots with the windows error recovery asking if I would like to 'Start Windows Normally'.
Boot into windows and select Live TV either directly through menu, or using the guide and selecting a channel. A few times it stayed on for a couple of minutes, then other times it will only stay on for 20 seconds, before shutting down & rebooting again.
But I can use Windows (web browsing, software installations, read event logs) and PC stays on, until using WMC and selecting Live TV.

It was only this bad last night, previously it would happen a couple of times then it would be OK.

Event Logs only report
Log Name: System
Source: Microsoft-Windows-Kernel-Power
Event ID: 41
Level: Critical
Description:
The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.

So, to try and resolve the issue I updated the GPU drivers, removed Shark Codec pack and installed the latest version (4.1.2) & installed windows updates.
Testing after each installation and shutdowns kept occurring.

To be honest the PC has not been very stable......ever

In the past I was experiencing random BSOD's but these seem to have become less regular.
When troubleshooting that I ran Mem Test overnight, twice - no errors. CHKDSK was fine, SFC /scannow was fine too.

I'm getting to my whits end with a device that was supposed to make life easier!!!

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am trying to provide as much relevant info as I can.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[holidayboy]

Doesn't the TBS card have a power connector (floppy disk type or Molex)?

Have you checked total power usage with a plug in power meter?

Maybe try a different PSU for a test?

You could also disable automatic restarts to see if you can get more details from any blue screens you get.

[RobsterUK]

holidayboy, thanks for the reply.

The TBS card does have a power connector, it has the 'GPU card' style 6pin. Which from what I could gather when researching the parts should only be needed if the sat dish is motorized.
Unfortunately I don't have a plug-in power meter.
I do have a spare PSU I could test but it is a little difficult to have the guts hanging out and a PSU out in the open with my kids running around.

Your reply indicates to me you think it could be PSU related.
I must admit I have been worried that the PSU is not man enough for the job. But with the choice of case I am realistically at the max for the space I have.

As for auto restarts I do not appear to have been having blue screens, as the PC will simply reboot. Or is that what you mean? Am I actually getting blue screens but the PC is rebooting without me seeing the error? But then the event log isn't reporting any blue screens either...

Up until last night the reboots were completely random, it could have gone a couple of days before happening.
I think testing a different PSU may be my only choice right now.

[leroys1000]

Going to live TV pulls power from the tuner and increases load on the graphics.
Does sound like the power supply can't handle it.
Also more power from the hard drive and cpu for processing and live TV buffer.

[RobsterUK]

Going to live TV pulls power from the tuner and increases load on the graphics.
Does sound like the power supply can't handle it.
Also more power from the hard drive and cpu for processing and live TV buffer.

Yes I understand that the system draws more power when watching live TV.
What I don't understand is that it has been reasonably OK (this issue only happening occasionally) until last night.
Nothing had been changed yet I couldn't get Live TV to work.

Well both of you pointing me to the PSU would seem a good place to start.
Just been looking for power meters and they are less expensive than I thought. May invest in one.

Any recommendations? Have seen this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Energenie-ENER0 ... 957&sr=1-2 Would that be good enough?

Thanks for your advise so far guys!

[Shackleford]

Power supply efficiency degrades over time. So what may have been sufficient at one point may have reached a point to where the load was too much. If I had to guess the 160 watt rating is a peak rating. So when you check your load measure it against what its rated and not the peak. Also you may want to verify that your RAM is getting the proper voltage in the BIOS.

[RobsterUK]

The PicoPSU is rated at 160W with a peak of 200W see here:
http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-160-XT; ... -870554906
The power brick I have is a rated at 192W so any peak load should just about pull what it needs from the brick.
As for degrading over time, I only built this system in February, so I would hope it has not degraded too much in 3 months!

I think I will order a power meter and test what I already have, before testing another PSU.

[Shackleford]

If its rated at 160w and that new highly doubt you are overloading it. Unless its simply faulty which a power meter isn't going to tell you. There are power supply testers you can get though. I would still check your voltages in your BIOS and make sure the motherboard isn't over or under volting something.

[holidayboy]

That power meter is ideal.

At least it will tell you if you are near the limit for the pico.

It's also worth trying to plug some power into the card power connector, I spoke to a friend a few minutes ago and he had issues with his card - TBS got him to plug in the extra power cable and it fixed it. It apparently had to do with how much power the motherboard was able to deliver over the PCIe bus.

You might have a spare floppy or Molex connector on the pico that you could use/modify to connect the card up with? I used my pico's floppy connector to feed the 'P4' socket on a motherboard I had in a mini HTPC).

You can prevent the automatic restart after a system crash by following this article - you may (or may not!) get some more details regarding the error:

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows- ... ic-reboot/

[RobsterUK]

I have ordered that power meter I linked to above.
I think that will be a good start to see how much the system is drawing under load, as I currently have no idea.

I haven't touched the BIOS voltages so unless there is an issue with the board I guess they should all be set correctly.

The pico does have a spare floppy connector, but the TBS card came with a GPU style 6 pin to 3xMolex converter. Would a standard GPU 6 pin to 2xMolex work the same? As I'm sure I have a spare one of those somewhere. Rather than trying to add 3 spare Molex to use the converter that came with the card.

Thanks for the link to disable auto-reboot I will check it out.

Looks as though the old sky box is going to get some use for a few days until I can start testing properly. Luckily I have next week off work, so I hope I can get this nailed and increase the WAF to an all time high!

[Shackleford]

It's also worth trying to plug some power into the card power connector, I spoke to a friend a few minutes ago and he had issues with his card - TBS got him to plug in the extra power cable and it fixed it. It apparently had to do with how much power the motherboard was able to deliver over the PCIe bus.

This very well could be. Out of curiosity can you play a video in vlc player or stream from the net without a problem?

[RobsterUK]

Shackleford: I must admit I didn't try any other players or net streaming. Didn't even try media browser. Bear in mind I had the family kinda hanging about wanting to watch TV for the evening.
Will be doing some testing next week with what has already been discussed, will add - playing videos from other sources to the list.

I will have family around this weekend too, so it may be a few days until I can test and report back. (goddam life getting in the way again, grrr!)

[holidayboy]

Getting some extra power is the aim, a single molex connector is certainly better than none - I'm not sure how many separate 'rails' the pico has - possibly one, so using more than one molex connector isn't going to give you much in terms of real world benefits.

You could also try running something like SiSoftware Sandra (free edition), or other benchmarking software to give the CPU / GPU etc a real workout, let it run for a while and see if that trips the system up.

[RobsterUK]

H guys,

I have finally had the opportunity to test a few things.

I hadn't plugged the PC in since last week & today was the first time I had looked at it.

I have purchased a power meter to determine what power draw the PC is making & I also bought an additional peripheral cable for the Pico PSU.

I also have emailed TBS tech support to ask about the extra power cable. I asked if it was necessary to use all 3 Molex connectors.
They replied by saying you only need 1 not all 3.
Also a GPU power cable is not suitable (I found a spare one, it only has 5 out of 6 pins populated).

So, I fired up the PC and checked the power usage - 42W at idle.
Left it to settle for a minute then tried Live TV. PC rebooted within a minute, but was drawing 55W before it did so & just as it powered off the peak was 70W.

After it booted up again I started watching a recorded program. Ran it for 10 mins and the power usage was around 50W with a peak of 70W. Seemed stable.
During this time the Guide Update Task had started so I waited for that to finish then noticed (from event logs) that the WMC Client Maintenance was running so I waited for 15 minutes for that to finish.
While that was running (WMC open, but no media playing) I re-ran the Windows Experience Assessment (as I hadn't done this since installing new GPU drivers). Power usage peaked at 125W.

Without rebooting I selected Live TV (BBC1) power draw was 55W peak of 70W.
The odd thing now is that when changing channel the power draw seemed to dip to around 48W then straight back up to 55W again when channel had loaded.
So, now went back to BBC1 and started recording while watching the same channel, power draw 55W peak 64W.
Left recording and switched to BBC2, power draw 55W.
Then changed channel to to BBC1 HD with recording still running. Power draw 67W peak of 74W.

Now powered off, and added additional peripheral cable for PSU, using 1 Molex connector plugged in additional power cable for Tuner Card.
Powered on and watching Live TV (BBC1) power draw didn't seem to change - Live TV 55W, peak of 75W.
Then recorded same channel while watching it, power draw 55W peak of 64W.
Then watched BBC1 HD while still recording BBC1, power draw 69W peak of 70W.
Then stopped recording but still watching BBC1 HD, power draw 69W peak of 70W.

Then tried plugging in 2 of the Tuner Card Molex connectors.
Live TV BBC1 HD power draw 69W.

Summary
First boot and I still had the same issue.
PSU load seems to be well within the Pico's capabilities (especially while playing media). Highest draw was while running the Windows Experience Assessment (125W).
Adding additional power to the Tuner Card does not seem to have increased the power draw on the system. (which I would have thought it would do TBH).

Now the Tuner Card has been provided with additional power I will attempt to use the system normally and see how it goes.
I have left the power meter plugged in so I can quickly check the power draw if I need to.

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll post back if there's any changes.

[jmelan]

I would look at analyzing the BSOD crash logs and post on a forum where people can help you troubleshoot.

For example: http://www.sevenforums.com/bsod-help-support/

I had a very similar issue, replaced the power supply, ram, etc with no change, with increasing crashes while watching TV. I made several firmware/software/driver changes and the HTPC has been absolutely stable since. Old drivers and firmware and unnecessary motherboard components can be easily fixed without spending any money, but it does take some time. Be patient and thorough and you should be able to get it fixed.

Some ideas: Is the firmware of the Intel SSD up to date? NIC drivers? Have you done a clean install of the video drivers? Are there motherboard components (eg Marvel IDE controller) that you are not using that can be disabled?

[RobsterUK]

It has taken a while but I seem to have finally solved this issue. (fingers crossed as I'm typing this - not wishing to jinx it!!)

The PC would fairly frequently, reboot without warning, while watching Live TV. Viewing any other media was fine. It was completely random and I was unable to re-create the issue. Sometimes it would be OK for up to 2 weeks before doing the same thing. If I unplugged everything (power brick, network cable, satellite coax) overnight it usually would be OK again for a few more days. Then it got to the point where even this didn't work and PC was unusable, as it would reboot, then try watching TV - 5-15 mins later it would do it again.

Enough is enough - need to get to the bottom of this

I started by RMA'ing the motherboard back to Overclockers.
They issued me a refund for it. So I guess they stress tested it and found an issue.
Not sure what they found - as this mobo (AsRock FM2A75M-ITX) was fairly well know for overheating (some even caught fire!) - although I didn't experience anything like this (and as it turns out the mobo probably wasn't the issue).
So I bought the AsRock FM2A85X-ITX and duley re-installed Windows & reconfigured MCE, Media Browser, extender etc, until all was configured as before. That was a fairly mammoth task in itself.
The final stage was to re-configure the channels (as the Guide Tool backup/restore didn't seem to achieve this properly) I had to manually do it again.
The PC had been fine up until this point, no random re-boots or blue screens. When flicking through the channels to check correct line up had been loaded, the PC rebooted. It did this a couple of times.

So, mobo replaced, issues still occurring.

I RMA'ed the TV card, replacement issued and swapped it out. First time I tried to watch TV the PC rebooted (as before).

Not much left to try now.
Power brick I had been using I had bought from ebay, and I think it was a modified XBOX 360 power brick. Which the seller assured me he was using to power his own HTPC. Anyway he agreed to refund me and I bought this power brick http://linitx.com/product/fsp-12v-125a- ... jack/12342 to try.

It's been 3 weeks now and the issue has not happened once (.....yet - again, don't wish to jinx it )

I am not using the external molex power leads for the TV card, it seems the board is providing enough power for the card by itself.

Lesson to be learnt from this - only buy quality products in the first place

Hope this saga will at least help one person from making the same mistakes that I did!!