Oldest Mac Mini WITHOUT 29/59 Issue?

A place to talk about GPUs/Motherboards/CPUs/Cases/Remotes, etc.
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sushi714

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Oldest Mac Mini WITHOUT 29/59 Issue?

#1

Post by sushi714 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:29 am

I'm looking to replace my power-guzzling Windows HTPC with a Mac Mini, but I can't see myself parting with WMC7 yet, so I'm hoping this site yields some results from like-minded individuals!

Anyway, I've done some research across the web and most Mac Mini recommendations for WMC7 HTPC purposes have been for the Mid 2011 model with the AMD GPU, in order to minimize the 29/59 problem.

The problem is, the most recent of most of the results I've been able to find were posted back in 2011-12 -- but I want to know if any of the more recent models of the Mac Mini have an onboard GPU that no longer experiences the 29/59 problem, or at least have had software updates to alleviate the problem. I've been seeing Mid 2011 models on eBay going for the same price as 2015 models on my local Craigslist, so really, this is the biggest reason why I'm interested in if the later models have eliminated the 29/59 problem.

NOTE: I am DEFINITELY also open to the totally acceptable option of reconfiguring my current HTPC setup to a more "energy saving" PC, if it is more cost effective than a Mac Mini, but I'm having trouble finding anywhere that still carries ITX motherboards for the i3-550 and I'm not sure if any PC configuration can arrive at the same quietness and low power consumption as a comparable Mac Mini. I have a Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe currently, but I will probably be selling it soon and putting the funds toward an HDHomerun Prime, as this will reduce necessary cooling hardware costs if I end up repurposing the current HTPC and going the ITX route (or will be needed, anyway, should I go the Mac Mini route).

Thanks in advance for any help! :)

richard1980

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#2

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:31 am

29/59 is an attribute of the content, not the GPU. It means the MPEG headers state that the content contains a mixture of field pictures and frame pictures.

There are several different known problems with playing 29/59 content...stuttering, flickering, screen blanking, and artifacts caused by either a failure to deinterlace or unnecessary deinterlacing. The first three may or may not occur depending on the GPU, driver, and driver settings. To get the best performance when playing 29/59 content, shop for a GPU that, when combined with the right driver and settings, does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking. As for artifacts caused by either a failure to deinterlace or unnecessary deinterlacing, there is no way to resolve that problem. It is the result of the MPEG header not matching the content.

Here is a link that may help you: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204349. I couldn't find one for AMD.

adam1991

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#3

Post by adam1991 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:11 am

29/59 is an attribute of the content; whether it creates visual troubles to the viewer is a function of the GPU.

That being said, the correct answer might be Mac Mini running Win7, stuck away in the corner somewhere plus XBox Slim (or Ceton Echo) at each TV. The extenders will wake the Mac.

(Hmmmm, boot Win7 in bare metal or in a VM?)

sushi714

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#4

Post by sushi714 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:42 am

Thanks for the replies so far.

While I understand 29/59 is an attribute of the content and I understand stuttering could be caused by a multitude of problems, I've just been reading over and over across several posts regarding the GPU (and accompanying drivers) being the main culprit with live TV in WMC7 on Mac Minis. I rarely watch anything besides live TV or recorded television via WMC7 on my current HTPC, so this would be the same for the Mac Mini. I don't do any video editing or encoding myself, so I will not be touching any MPEG header info, so unless WMC7 does something with this on its own, I'm not really concerned with other content that might cause the issue.

BOTTOM LINE: I want to purchase a Mac Mini where the GPU has had a driver released that can remedy the 29/59 issue (either automatically or through some setting changes) for live/recorded TV in WMC7.

As far as the Windows 7 install, I'd probably install via Boot Camp, as I'd primarily use Windows 7 on the Mac Mini (but occasionally switch to OSX, since I use the environment for work).

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#5

Post by mcewinter » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:07 am

There are many variables to consider making it almost impossible to research without using the old trial and error method. For years, I had no issues with one particular setup (ATI HD5450) until I upgraded my TV. The new TV is a higher resolution and displayed a horrible flicker that I did not experience prior. I simply replaced the PC with one from another room (Clarkdale i3) and experience no flicker. I thought my kid was going to have a seizure every time he watched paw patrol.

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#6

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:19 am

sushi714 wrote:I want to purchase a Mac Mini where the GPU has had a driver released that can remedy the 29/59 issue
Such a GPU does not exist, in a Mac Mini or otherwise. The best you can do is get a GPU that, when combined with the right driver and settings, does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking when 29/59 content is played.

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#7

Post by STC » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:33 am

If your content is copy free this is a very good method of dealing with the problem:
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... f=5&t=7783
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

adam1991

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#8

Post by adam1991 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:35 am

richard1980 wrote:
sushi714 wrote:I want to purchase a Mac Mini where the GPU has had a driver released that can remedy the 29/59 issue
Such a GPU does not exist, in a Mac Mini or otherwise. The best you can do is get a GPU that, when combined with the right driver and settings, does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking when 29/59 content is played.
Richard, when he says "remedy the issue" he means EXACTLY what you said.

Ergo, such a GPU does indeed exist.

sushi714

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#9

Post by sushi714 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:54 am

adam1991 wrote:
richard1980 wrote:
sushi714 wrote:I want to purchase a Mac Mini where the GPU has had a driver released that can remedy the 29/59 issue
Such a GPU does not exist, in a Mac Mini or otherwise. The best you can do is get a GPU that, when combined with the right driver and settings, does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking when 29/59 content is played.
Richard, when he says "remedy the issue" he means EXACTLY what you said.

Ergo, such a GPU does indeed exist.
THANK YOU, adam1991 -- read my "GPU...[and] driver released that can remedy the 29/59 issue (either automatically or through some setting changes)" statement to mean the same as richard1980's "GPU that, when combined with the right driver and settings, does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking when 29/59 content is played" statement.

Since we know which GPU's are in the Mac Minis, and there weren't many (or any) GPU options available for a given Mac Mini model year, I was hoping someone would at least know which of those GPU's have known GPU + driver + config setting combinations that have resolved the 29/59 issue for most users who were previously experiencing the issue with WMC7 live/recorded TV content.

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#10

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:00 am

adam1991 wrote:Richard, when he says "remedy the issue" he means EXACTLY what you said.
That was not clear to me. Even with a GPU that does not stutter, flicker, or cause screen blanking, the 29/59 issue is still not remedied, as there is still the issue of incorrectly flagged pictures, which end up getting processed incorrectly and result in visible artifacts.

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#11

Post by adam1991 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:18 am

"Remedied" is clear: he wishes not to have a strict visual representation of the frame data, and/or be visually bothered by its existence.

That is the ONLY remedy one really needs now, isn't it. And of course the 29/59 issue CAN be remedied.

If SPECIFIC frame information changes in the forest but the SYSTEM does not represent the change visually to the observer, does it make a sound?

Wait a minute--I was being funny there. On purpose. There's no need to comment on how "but we're talking visual information, not audible information". But please, don't ask this old psych major to believe that data which do not represent themselves to the sensory system of the observer are relevant.

And if the data are not relevant because they do not represent themselves to the sensory system of the observer, then they do not exist for the purposes of discussion here on TGB.

Ergo, the conversational implicature of "remedy the issue" is clear: the user wishes not to have his sensory system impinged by a strict representation of whatever the data represent. He knows that there exist in the world GPUs that interpret and display the data in a way that his sensory system is not impinged by the strict representation of the frame-by-frame data--for the purposes of conversation, we'll call that the "Richard" representation. He knows that there exist in the world GPUs that instead interpret and display the data in terms of what is meant to be displayed to the human observer, rather than what is strictly described in the data themselves; we'll call that the "Everyone Else" representation.

Given that this is a social forum, the conversational implicature of "remedy the issue" takes precedence over the strictest interpretation of same. We all know that the data themselves in the frames won't be altered. We all know that. No one is asking for the data in the frames to be altered, no one has asked for that, and no one will ask for that. Frankly, no one cares. All people here want is for the "Everyone Else" representation to reach their eyeballs.

And given that people know that CAN happen, what people come here to discuss are the details of how to MAKE that happen on a variety of hardware platforms.

Discussion of the visual representation of the frame data does not equal discussion of the frame data themselves.

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#12

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:41 pm

Adam, I would agree with you if the artifacts caused by incorrectly-flagged pictures were not visible to the user. But they are. There are several users here (including me) who have stated that they can visually observe the artifacts, with shimmering in still images (logos, banners, etc.), and combing in motion being the top two observable effects.

The OP stated that he is looking for a GPU that remedies the 29/59 issue. There was no restrictive languange to indicate that he was only looking to remedy certain effects of 29/59 content, so I interpreted the OP's goal to be zero picture quality degradation. And as I stated, no such GPU exists. You can buy a GPU that won't stutter, flicker, or blank out the screen, but you can't buy a GPU that will cause those artifacts to go away.

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#13

Post by adam1991 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:14 pm

richard1980 wrote:Adam, I would agree with you if the artifacts caused by incorrectly-flagged pictures were not visible to the user. But they are. There are several users here (including me) who have stated that they can visually observe the artifacts, with shimmering in still images (logos, banners, etc.), and combing in motion being the top two observable effects.

The OP stated that he is looking for a GPU that remedies the 29/59 issue. There was no restrictive languange to indicate that he was only looking to remedy certain effects of 29/59 content, so I interpreted the OP's goal to be zero picture quality degradation. And as I stated, no such GPU exists. You can buy a GPU that won't stutter, flicker, or blank out the screen, but you can't buy a GPU that will cause those artifacts to go away.
I dispute that, as I have seen no shimmering in still images and combing in motion on my system whatsoever.

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#14

Post by richard1980 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:37 am

adam1991 wrote:I dispute that, as I have seen no shimmering in still images and combing in motion on my system whatsoever.
If a tree falls in the forrest, and Adam doesn't hear it (but other people do), does it make a sound? :)

Fair warning: Once you see it once, you start seeing it more often, and it becomes very annoying...like that itch you just can't scratch.

Here is one of the examples that I can remember. There are others, but I remember this one very well. http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 140#p65140. Another memorable example is the clip from the old TGB where the camera is panning in on a brick building. I can't remember what the clip was from, but I remember the windows were an excellent example of the combing.

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