DIY HTPC vs Pre-Built

[assassin]

I'm not talking about image quality. I'm talking about playback performance. The Intel chips (with exception of HD4000) struggle at HD playback. Especially uncompressed. Media center often crashes or videos will just stop playing. Obviously mmv depending on the actual content.

Again, simply not true. You are giving people the absolute wrong information.

Take this independent review of an i3 2100 (HD2000) system with NO discrete video card.

http://dvr.about.com/od/capturetvwithac ... ths-In.htm

Over the course of several months we've used the Elite as our daily Media Center PC in our living room. It also serves content to four Xbox 360 extenders throughout our home. During this time, the Elite has been nothing but exceptional when it comes to the demands we've placed on it. The system has yet to lock up, dump running programs or have any sort of hardware issue while in use.

Recording and viewing television is the main function for our family and the Elite never hesitates when accessing all of the content we record. When you consider that this includes all of the metadata associated with the recordings, this is no small feat. Accessing and displaying this much data can pound on an HTPC and the Elite never stutters or drops the ball when it comes to pulling content.

The same can be said when accessing our archived media. With full gigabit support to the server, movies and TV shows load quickly and playback begins almost instantly. Once Total Media Theater 5 was installed, Blu-ray playback within Media Center (though not perfect) was excellent. Any issues during playback had everything to do with TMT5 and not the hardware running it.

The whole point here is that no matter what I've asked the Elite HTPC to do, it has done the task without issue. From streaming Netflix to pushing HD TV to three extenders at a time to recording up to six HD shows at once, nothing has phased the system. It doesn't even seem to blink no matter what is asked of it. (And yes, we are heavy TV and movie watchers.)

Here is another screenshot where the reviewer is watching one HD feed while recording FOUR additional HD feeds:

The Elite runs silky smooth even when recording four HD programs and playing back a fifth.

Not to mention my, and hundreds of other users at AVS, experience with using the Intel iGPU.

What you say just isn't true and has been perpetuated for some reason on some forums with absolutely no data to back it up.

Please quit misinforming people.

[itznfb]

No data? Google "i3 HD playback issues" and you'll find TONS of people reporting and showing examples of exactly what I explained. With your inability to do a simple Google search you are the one misinforming people. You can't find these same reports for Llano or the few people with Trinity. You'll find some here or there but not the thousands upon thousands you see with the Intel chips. In many cases you see these people switch to Llano and everything is smooth from then on out.

Edit: Having 1 or 2 examples of where it works doesn't mean a thing. There are Tegra 3 users that show 10,000+ HD streams playing at once. Yet 99.9% of people can't get that to work. What works out of the box every time is what matters. Llano is the far superior choice.

Edit2: Even in the links you posted they admit to playback issues but blame it on the player. Really? I've never had playback issues with TMT5 on a Llano or Trinity chip but I have with an i3. Yeah. It's the software

[assassin]

No data? Google "i3 HD playback issues" and you'll find TONS of people reporting and showing examples of exactly what I explained. With your inability to do a simple Google search you are the one misinforming people. You can't find these same reports for Llano or the few people with Trinity. You'll find some here or there but not the thousands upon thousands you see with the Intel chips. In many cases you see these people switch to Llano and everything is smooth from then on out.

Edit: Having 1 or 2 examples of where it works doesn't mean a thing. There are Tegra 3 users that show 10,000+ HD streams playing at once. Yet 99.9% of people can't get that to work. What works out of the box every time is what matters. Llano is the far superior choice.

Edit2: Even in the links you posted they admit to playback issues but blame it on the player. Really? I've never had playback issues with TMT5 on a Llano or Trinity chip but I have with an i3. Yeah. It's the software

Right, because Googling is VERY scientific. You pretty much can find anything you want. Like these results for example...

http://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chr ... ack+issues

Over 1 out of every 4 people at AVS are using the Intel iGPU without any issues at all: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1394442

Again, you are just flat out wrong. Have you personally even used the Intel iGPU?

[assassin]

Follow along with me...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1413131

[kalex]

I don't agree with Assasin on few things but I do have to agree with him on this one.

I have gateway sx2840-01 (first i3 model) which i use for WMC and XBMC. I have HDhomerun Dual OTA tuner and ceton PCIE 4 tuner model. I can record 6 tuners at the same time and have no issues with performance on playback of recordings. I also use XBMC version 11 to playback MKV files which also play back without any issues. My WMC can be recording and i would be watching the XBMC show without any issues. And this is the slower version not the sandy bridge model. Only issue i have is with ceton cooling since i have small form factor case and I'm trying to figure out where to put a fan in.

[duncane]

The Intel chips (with exception of HD4000) struggle at HD playback

Mmmm, my HD3000 has no issues at all. Quite a blanket statement you made there.

[Zon2020]

I'm not talking about image quality. I'm talking about playback performance. The Intel chips (with exception of HD4000) struggle at HD playback. Especially uncompressed. Media center often crashes or videos will just stop playing. Obviously mmv depending on the actual content.

Simply not correct.

My i3-2100 never crashes or stops playing during HD playback. Never.

Should I assume you do not own and have never actually used one yourself?

[barnabas1969]

I've been holding off commenting in this thread. I must point out that the i3 Clarkdale is the only iGPU that plays 29/59 content correctly (content where the frame rate changes between 29/59fps, sometimes rapidly). The user "itznfb" may have found people complaining about video that isn't smooth on an i3, particularly when watching HBO... but there are other premium cable channels that have the issue too.

If the OP intends to use a CableCARD tuner and wants to use the i3 with integrated graphics, then he should make sure to buy a Clarkdale i3, not a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge.

Otherwise, the i3 should be just fine for an HTPC. I would have gone with the i3, but I chose the i5 because of the number of extenders I have.

[assassin]

I've been holding off commenting in this thread. I must point out that the i3 Clarkdale is the only iGPU that plays 29/59 content correctly (content where the frame rate changes between 29/59fps, sometimes rapidly). The user "itznfb" may have found people complaining about video that isn't smooth on an i3, particularly when watching HBO... but there are other premium cable channels that have the issue too.

If the OP intends to use a CableCARD tuner and wants to use the i3 with integrated graphics, then he should make sure to buy a Clarkdale i3, not a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge.

Otherwise, the i3 should be just fine for an HTPC. I would have gone with the i3, but I chose the i5 because of the number of extenders I have.

I would be careful who you put that blame on. Looks like its mainly Microsoft and WMC and AMD/ATI is definitely affected as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... st21978803

[tommo]

is it worth holding out the ivybridge i3's ?

I was going to build a new itx rig soon and just from glancing at a few reviews it looks like the ivybridge platform may mean I can play a few games on the HTPC (nothing too taxing) without a dedicated card.

The HD4000 iGPU is a rough equivalent of the ATI 6570 for gaming.

And the i3 CPU will be plenty for most games and won't be the limiting factor.

That's good to know, so basically unless you are desperate hold out for the ivybridge i3 hd4000. Just thought that along with mame games etc it would be nice to have a couple console type games and use a couple xbox360 wireless pads.

[barnabas1969]

I've been holding off commenting in this thread. I must point out that the i3 Clarkdale is the only iGPU that plays 29/59 content correctly (content where the frame rate changes between 29/59fps, sometimes rapidly). The user "itznfb" may have found people complaining about video that isn't smooth on an i3, particularly when watching HBO... but there are other premium cable channels that have the issue too.

If the OP intends to use a CableCARD tuner and wants to use the i3 with integrated graphics, then he should make sure to buy a Clarkdale i3, not a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge.

Otherwise, the i3 should be just fine for an HTPC. I would have gone with the i3, but I chose the i5 because of the number of extenders I have.

I would be careful who you put that blame on. Looks like its mainly Microsoft and WMC and AMD/ATI is definitely affected as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... st21978803

Regardless of who is to blame, the Clarkdale i3 is the only one that has been shown to correctly handle the 29/59 content without using an add-on graphics card like the nVidia GT-430.

[itznfb]

No data? Google "i3 HD playback issues" and you'll find TONS of people reporting and showing examples of exactly what I explained. With your inability to do a simple Google search you are the one misinforming people. You can't find these same reports for Llano or the few people with Trinity. You'll find some here or there but not the thousands upon thousands you see with the Intel chips. In many cases you see these people switch to Llano and everything is smooth from then on out.

Edit: Having 1 or 2 examples of where it works doesn't mean a thing. There are Tegra 3 users that show 10,000+ HD streams playing at once. Yet 99.9% of people can't get that to work. What works out of the box every time is what matters. Llano is the far superior choice.

Edit2: Even in the links you posted they admit to playback issues but blame it on the player. Really? I've never had playback issues with TMT5 on a Llano or Trinity chip but I have with an i3. Yeah. It's the software

Right, because Googling is VERY scientific. You pretty much can find anything you want. Like these results for example...

http://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chr ... ack+issues

Over 1 out of every 4 people at AVS are using the Intel iGPU without any issues at all: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1394442

Again, you are just flat out wrong. Have you personally even used the Intel iGPU?

It's just as scientific as your 1 out of 4 "statistic". And no I'm not wrong at all. Again, when you can find thousands upon thousands of people reporting the same issue for i3/i5 but you can't find those reports for Llano/Trinity that cannot be discounted. Yes I have personally used all 3 generations of Intel's iGPU for media center usage. Ivy Bridge was the first one that has performed flawlessly. The first two generations were the reason I went to Llano. They performed horribly. They weren't able to playback any HD recordings from NBC. Llano was flawless. So was IvyBridge.

[jedimaster109]

I've been holding off commenting in this thread. I must point out that the i3 Clarkdale is the only iGPU that plays 29/59 content correctly (content where the frame rate changes between 29/59fps, sometimes rapidly). The user "itznfb" may have found people complaining about video that isn't smooth on an i3, particularly when watching HBO... but there are other premium cable channels that have the issue too.

If the OP intends to use a CableCARD tuner and wants to use the i3 with integrated graphics, then he should make sure to buy a Clarkdale i3, not a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge.

Otherwise, the i3 should be just fine for an HTPC. I would have gone with the i3, but I chose the i5 because of the number of extenders I have.

I would be careful who you put that blame on. Looks like its mainly Microsoft and WMC and AMD/ATI is definitely affected as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... st21978803

Regardless of who is to blame, the Clarkdale i3 is the only one that has been shown to correctly handle the 29/59 content without using an add-on graphics card like the nVidia GT-430.

Why is that Barnabas?
I'm considering a Sandy Bridge HTPC with Intel HD as video...
Is Ivy Bridge Fixed?

[assassin]

No data? Google "i3 HD playback issues" and you'll find TONS of people reporting and showing examples of exactly what I explained. With your inability to do a simple Google search you are the one misinforming people. You can't find these same reports for Llano or the few people with Trinity. You'll find some here or there but not the thousands upon thousands you see with the Intel chips. In many cases you see these people switch to Llano and everything is smooth from then on out.

Edit: Having 1 or 2 examples of where it works doesn't mean a thing. There are Tegra 3 users that show 10,000+ HD streams playing at once. Yet 99.9% of people can't get that to work. What works out of the box every time is what matters. Llano is the far superior choice.

Edit2: Even in the links you posted they admit to playback issues but blame it on the player. Really? I've never had playback issues with TMT5 on a Llano or Trinity chip but I have with an i3. Yeah. It's the software

Right, because Googling is VERY scientific. You pretty much can find anything you want. Like these results for example...

http://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chr ... ack+issues

Over 1 out of every 4 people at AVS are using the Intel iGPU without any issues at all: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1394442

Again, you are just flat out wrong. Have you personally even used the Intel iGPU?

It's just as scientific as your 1 out of 4 "statistic". And no I'm not wrong at all. Again, when you can find thousands upon thousands of people reporting the same issue for i3/i5 but you can't find those reports for Llano/Trinity that cannot be discounted. Yes I have personally used all 3 generations of Intel's iGPU for media center usage. Ivy Bridge was the first one that has performed flawlessly. The first two generations were the reason I went to Llano. They performed horribly. They weren't able to playback any HD recordings from NBC. Llano was flawless. So was IvyBridge.

So AVS --- which is home to the most knowledgeable people on earth in regards to HTPC --- posts a 90%+ response in favor of using the Intel iGPU and you compare it as equivalent to a random Google search?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1413131

I can google as easy as you can. And I found google results that I linked that showed that Llano had issues as well. That whole argument is incredibly weak and means absolutely nothing. You can find anything with a google search.

I will let people make their own decisions on who is "wrong" here. Your "thousands upon thousands" reference is just laughable. And if your experience using the Intel iGPU was "horrible" when "thousands upon thousands" HAVE used it with no issues then it just shows that you weren't using the product correctly.

[barnabas1969]

Why is that Barnabas?
I'm considering a Sandy Bridge HTPC with Intel HD as video...
Is Ivy Bridge Fixed?

It is well known that the Sandy Bridge suffers from the 29/59 issue. Clarkdale does not. As for the Ivy Bridge, that remains to be seen. I once read an article that said that Intel knew about the problem before they released Sandy Bridge, but due to a tight release schedule, they decided to move forward with the flawed design. I believe that same article said that the problem was expected to be fixed in Ivy Bridge, but I have not seen anything from anyone who has actually proved that to be true.

The safe money is on the Clarkdale if you are going to be using a CableCARD tuner, unless you will be using an add-on graphics card. In the case of an add-on graphics card, the choice of CPU doesn't matter much beyond the number of cores needed for the number of extenders that you will be using simultaneously.

If you would like to build a machine with an Ivy Bridge CPU, and test the integrated graphics with some known 29/59 content, that would be great. You could then post post your results in the known-good list on the wiki at the following link:
http://experts.windows.com/w/experts_wi ... ageIndex=1

[assassin]

Why is that Barnabas?
I'm considering a Sandy Bridge HTPC with Intel HD as video...
Is Ivy Bridge Fixed?

It is well known that the Sandy Bridge suffers from the 29/59 issue. Clarkdale does not. As for the Ivy Bridge, that remains to be seen. I once read an article that said that Intel knew about the problem before they released Sandy Bridge, but due to a tight release schedule, they decided to move forward with the flawed design. I believe that same article said that the problem was expected to be fixed in Ivy Bridge, but I have not seen anything from anyone who has actually proved that to be true.

The safe money is on the Clarkdale if you are going to be using a CableCARD tuner, unless you will be using an add-on graphics card. In the case of an add-on graphics card, the choice of CPU doesn't matter much beyond the number of cores needed for the number of extenders that you will be using simultaneously.

If you would like to build a machine with an Ivy Bridge CPU, and test the integrated graphics with some known 29/59 content, that would be great. You could then post post your results in the known-good list on the wiki at the following link:
http://experts.windows.com/w/experts_wi ... ageIndex=1

Are you talking about 29/59 or 23.976 (24p)?

They are different problems and all vendors suffer from both.

[barnabas1969]

Are you talking about 29/59 or 23.976 (24p)?

They are different problems and all vendors suffer from both.

Now that you mention it, I think the problem that Intel knew about with the Sandy Bridge was the problem with correctly displaying 23.976fps. I was, however, talking about 29/59... and the Clarkdale handles that fine. There's no telling if the Ivy Bridge will too.