Echo & Android Update

Talk with fellow members about Ceton's Media Center Extender.
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shortcut3d

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#41

Post by shortcut3d » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:39 am

cdcellular wrote:They cut corners in development. They chose cheap hardware that would inflate their profit margin at the expense of the end user. This was obvious at release but... they promised us upgrades. They teased us with tid bits of info and seduced us into buying a product that they have now effectively given up on. Nice guys? Big ideas? We all drank the koolaid it seems. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying their intentions were cynical, but at the end of the day, they exploited us plain and simple. They should be held accountable for that.
It's up to reviewers, Engadget, The Missing Remote, etc. to update their reviews and posts alluding to future Android support. That will hold Ceton accountable. Their reputation is damaged.

Again, this is such a shame and blow to the community. Not sure of the future of CableCARD tuners and HTPC.

RyC

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#42

Post by RyC » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:02 am


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Bill

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#43

Post by Bill » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:45 am

Man i don't even know what to say. I'm sure Motz/Eric are more upset than we are, so let's not take it out on them. They shot for the moon and missed. Hopefully they have something else up their sleeve.
HTPCs, InfiniTVs, and Extenders OH MY!

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#44

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:55 am

Bill wrote:Hopefully they have something else up their sleeve.
What sort of masochist are you?

I don't want them to have anything else up their sleeve. I don't want any more diversions. I don't want any more distractions. I don't want any more flights of fancy. I never wanted Android in the first place. I don't want it to run iOS, OSX, OS/2, ubunto, DR DOS, BEOS, or whatever OS they used in every 80's "hacker" movie that turned everything into crappy wireframe models. I just want something that's as good as my 360s, that's as stable as my 360s and that plays all the same media as my 360s without having to spend a few thousand hours compressing my movie collection.

A previous poster hit the nail on the head... they were too caught up with the "low power" idea, and ended up under-powering the device. Well, my Echos are using remarkably little power... 0 watts sitting in the drawer.

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#45

Post by Biggen » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:23 am

Did anyone really expect anything less of Ceton? The way they handled the Echo since the beginning was terrible They have really soiled their britches now with the HTPC community with this latest debacle.

ajhieb

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#46

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:24 am


adam1991

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#47

Post by adam1991 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:25 am

Bill wrote:Man i don't even know what to say. I'm sure Motz/Eric are more upset than we are, so let's not take it out on them. They shot for the moon and missed. Hopefully they have something else up their sleeve.
Agreed 100%. It's true: you miss 100% of the shots you never take. At least Ceton took the shot. What have the rest of you done lately besides crawl home from your safe cube jobs? What have you created, or tried to create, along these lines? Have any of you taken your life savings and gone down an uncertain path with the goal but no guarantee that you'll be highly successful at the end?

And I don't feel "exploited". Nothing exists until it's in my hands. The Echo got into my hands and does what it's supposed to do, although it could use some tweaking. But everything else--Android support--is just talk until it's in my hands. Those of you who took it seriously, who made life decisions based on that talk and who let it get into your head and run your emotions--well, that's your problem, not Ceton's. I don't understand why anyone lets such marketing talk run their lives to the extent they feel "betrayed" like what I'm seeing here.

Don't make decisions based on futures if what you want is a guarantee. But if you want to roll the dice, understand that they may not roll your way--and then move on with your life.

If you didn't like how they handled the Echo from the beginning, then you shouldn't have done business with them. If you did, that's on YOU.

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#48

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:59 am

adam1991 wrote:But everything else--Android support--is just talk until it's in my hands. Those of you who took it seriously, who made life decisions based on that talk and who let it get into your head and run your emotions--well, that's your problem, not Ceton's. I don't understand why anyone lets such marketing talk run their lives to the extent they feel "betrayed" like what I'm seeing here.
The problem I have (and based on the comments here, many other agree) isn't that Ceton tried to add Android and failed. The problem is that they took an unfinished product, and instead of trying to finish it, they went off in some other direction to add something that I don't need and have very little want for.

Basically, I hired Ceton to remodel my kitchen. And about halfway through they told me "Hey, we think it would be really cool to add a swimming pool in your back yard. So we're going to get busy working on that now instead of your kitchen. Don't worry, we aren't charging you anything extra." Which seems all well and good, because everybody likes pools, right? But every morning when I go down to the kitchen to get myself a bagel and I can't because my kitchen still isn't fixed, and every time I ask when they're going to finish my kitchen I'm completely and utterly ignored. Now after six months of bagel-free mornings, they finally break their silence and tell me, "Oops, we found out that your lot isn't zoned for a pool so even if we could finish the pool, we really can't... yeah, we probably should have checked into that 6 months ago before we started on it in the first place but, we're really just as disappointed as you." Plus I still don't know if/when they're ever going to finish my kitchen.

That is why I'm annoyed with Ceton.

Now, my concern is that the reason they went all-in with Android in the first place was either because they didn't think they could iron out the playback and stability issues without it. Or they knew they couldn't iron out the playback and stability issues so they were hoping that Android might help placate everyone.

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#49

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:34 pm

cdcellular wrote:They cut corners in development. They chose cheap hardware that would inflate their profit margin at the expense of the end user. This was obvious at release but... they promised us upgrades. They teased us with tid bits of info and seduced us into buying a product that they have no effectively given up on. Nice guys? Big ideas? We all drank the koolaid it seems. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying their intentions were cynical, but at the end of the day, they exploited us plain and simple. They should be held accountable for that.
Nobody exploited anybody. As I explained to you a couple of days ago, when you bought the Echo, the agreement was that you would get exactly what was in the box in exchange for the amount of money you paid. There was no contract stating that you would get anything that wasn't already included in the box...including firmware updates (with or without Android). And don't give me that BS about how Ceton's blog posts are a verbal contract. They are blog posts and absolutely nothing more. Moreover, even if a blog post could be considered a contract, the only thing Ceton has ever said is "We're working hard on it." So at best you got a "contract" for Ceton to work on Android, not for Ceton to succeed and deliver Android to you. Ceton certainly fulfilled their end of the "contract" when they spent nearly a year working on Android.

If you want to be mad, that's fine. But be mad for the right reasons. Don't be mad because they didn't try. They tried. Don't be mad because they "promised upgrades". They promised to work on upgrades. Don't be mad because "they teased us with tid bits of info and seduced us into buying a product that they have no[w] effectively given up on". They didn't, and they haven't. Don't be mad because they exploited you. They didn't. And most importantly, don't be mad because Ceton didn't give you a chance to return your Echo. They did, and you chose to keep it instead. That's your fault, not theirs.

If you want to be mad, be mad because they released a half-finished product. Be mad because they dedicated resources to Android instead of addressing the broken core functionality. Be mad because Ceton has adopted Microsoft's policy of doing half-a$$ work on something until it's "mostly good enough" instead of working on something until it's finished. Be mad because Ceton can't manage to accomplish what they try to accomplish. Be mad because you made the wrong bet.

I don't know if the problems at Ceton are due to management or piss-poor employees. All I know is if I did what Ceton does, I wouldn't have a job. And if I had people working for me that did what Ceton does, those people wouldn't have a job either. Half-a$$ work is not acceptable to me.

richard1980

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#50

Post by richard1980 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:38 pm

ajhieb wrote:Basically, I hired Ceton to remodel my kitchen. And about halfway through they told me "Hey, we think it would be really cool to add a swimming pool in your back yard. So we're going to get busy working on that now instead of your kitchen. Don't worry, we aren't charging you anything extra." Which seems all well and good, because everybody likes pools, right? But every morning when I go down to the kitchen to get myself a bagel and I can't because my kitchen still isn't fixed, and every time I ask when they're going to finish my kitchen I'm completely and utterly ignored. Now after six months of bagel-free mornings, they finally break their silence and tell me, "Oops, we found out that your lot isn't zoned for a pool so even if we could finish the pool, we really can't... yeah, we probably should have checked into that 6 months ago before we started on it in the first place but, we're really just as disappointed as you." Plus I still don't know if/when they're ever going to finish my kitchen.
That is an excellent analogy.
ajhieb wrote:Now, my concern is that the reason they went all-in with Android in the first place was either because they didn't think they could iron out the playback and stability issues without it.
That theory was proposed quite a while back, and I've got the same response today as I had then: Why is it that the other extender manufacturers managed just fine without having to have Android as a band-aid? If this is truly the case, this says quite a bit about the quality of Ceton's developers. Perhaps Ceton should hire developers that actually know what they are doing.

ajhieb

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#51

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:56 pm

richard1980 wrote:That theory was proposed quite a while back, and I've got the same response today as I had then: Why is it that the other extender manufacturers managed just fine without having to have Android as a band-aid? If this is truly the case, this says quite a bit about the quality of Ceton's developers. Perhaps Ceton should hire developers that actually know what they are doing.
In theory there could be bugs/incompatibilities with the FreeScale CPU and the drivers/OS used by Extender. If that were the case, that would be something essentially out of the hands of the Ceton Devs, but might be fixed by switching OSes.

I think it says less about the devs and more about the engineers. I really think the devs were hamstrung from day 1 based on the part selection done by the engineers.

Every time I shake my Magic Echo Eight Ball, it says "All signs point to FreeScale"

Ceton could have made the "safe" play and used an old chipset so they didn't have to reinvent the WMC firmware, but then it would have been Just Another Extender likely without the possibility of new features (or improved media compatibility) Instead they gambled with newer technology so they could try and bring a better extender experience to us. I can at least appreciate the approach they took, even if it has so far ended poorly.

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#52

Post by Crunch » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:13 pm

ajhieb wrote: Basically, I hired Ceton to remodel my kitchen. And about halfway through they told me "Hey, we think it would be really cool to add a swimming pool in your back yard. So we're going to get busy working on that now instead of your kitchen. Don't worry, we aren't charging you anything extra." Which seems all well and good, because everybody likes pools, right? But every morning when I go down to the kitchen to get myself a bagel and I can't because my kitchen still isn't fixed, and every time I ask when they're going to finish my kitchen I'm completely and utterly ignored. Now after six months of bagel-free mornings, they finally break their silence and tell me, "Oops, we found out that your lot isn't zoned for a pool so even if we could finish the pool, we really can't... yeah, we probably should have checked into that 6 months ago before we started on it in the first place but, we're really just as disappointed as you." Plus I still don't know if/when they're ever going to finish my kitchen.
Nah!
They did your kitchen and a few others in your street. Some thought they were promised bagels but they did say you could make toast. Most were happy with toast. So the street was awash with talk if it was toast or bagels they were promised. Some home owners stuck to their guns and went to work without breakfast. Others had a great breakfast on toast and went to work happy.

Time went on and Motz, Eric and family decided they needed a break.

Motz and Eric and team thought what about a nice pool we can relax by and have a beer. Being a geeky family, not just any pool, a super cool pool that no one else had, but may want. So mom and dad said sure, you can go out back and dig up yard to build your dream pool. One day mom looked out window and said 'Motz, Eric, you boys stop now! your pool has a few glitches, put the yard back how you found it and get back to work'. Mom and dad were happy their kids and friends only told the others about the pool idea and never started digging up anyone elses back yard. Problem was, a few in that other street, they started digging a hole for one of these new pools before they knew if it would work.

Throughout this the local 'Green' TV station was trying to report what was happening in the street. With so many different reports coming in it was like watching CNN during a cyclone in Florida with live reports coming from places like Alaska and London.

All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

acraigl

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#53

Post by acraigl » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:34 pm

I was a beta tester and purchased it before there was ever any mention of Android. Yes, the the tease-and-yank stings, but it's not why I purchased (though it may be for some, I'd wager).

My beef is that it does nothing more (and in some ways less) than my circa 2007 Linksys DMA2100, which I was hoping to replace. Android would have added real value, but alas, not to be. Ceton should be embarrassed that all this time, R&D and customer woes were invested to produce a smaller DMA2100. If that's all 7 years of technology can produce, I'd say the ROI was pretty poor.

Very sad.
Last edited by acraigl on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mariob33

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#54

Post by mariob33 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:34 pm

ajhieb wrote:
richard1980 wrote:That theory was proposed quite a while back, and I've got the same response today as I had then: Why is it that the other extender manufacturers managed just fine without having to have Android as a band-aid? If this is truly the case, this says quite a bit about the quality of Ceton's developers. Perhaps Ceton should hire developers that actually know what they are doing.
In theory there could be bugs/incompatibilities with the FreeScale CPU and the drivers/OS used by Extender. If that were the case, that would be something essentially out of the hands of the Ceton Devs, but might be fixed by switching OSes.

I think it says less about the devs and more about the engineers. I really think the devs were hamstrung from day 1 based on the part selection done by the engineers.

Every time I shake my Magic Echo Eight Ball, it says "All signs point to FreeScale"

Ceton could have made the "safe" play and used an old chipset so they didn't have to reinvent the WMC firmware, but then it would have been Just Another Extender likely without the possibility of new features (or improved media compatibility) Instead they gambled with newer technology so they could try and bring a better extender experience to us. I can at least appreciate the approach they took, even if it has so far ended poorly.

I am not sure if its strictly a Freescale issue. They didn't propose this design, they only make chips and stuff. It is up to the engineering team at Ceton to do their due diligence before committing on a platform they knew couldn't support the roadmap.

Ceton as a company seems to continually "pseudo" over promise and has a very shoddy record of delivering. I say this because they always seem to have some slipped statement that says we have product X and it will do magic A in period X but none of the statements positions can ever be linked to the actual product release (it's almost bait and switch).

A perfect example is the whole DTS position with the echo. The statement was released, a supposed something existed somewhere, but when it came to actual product development and release silence. This isn't the only example, I purchased the damn iOS, windows, android companion apps with the understanding that streaming to the mobile devices was in the works and was part of the roadmap, so far foolish me. Perhaps there are no real engineers engineering and strictly a group of people developing against a very shaky roadmap. Freescale IMO has little to no culpability here.

ajhieb

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#55

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:42 pm

Crunch wrote:Nah!
They did your kitchen and a few others in your street. Some thought they were promised bagels but they did say you could make toast. Most were happy with toast. So the street was awash with talk if it was toast or bagels they were promised. Some home owners stuck to their guns and went to work without breakfast. Others had a great breakfast on toast and went to work happy.

Time went on and Motz, Eric and family decided they needed a break.

Motz and Eric and team thought what about a nice pool we can relax by and have a beer. Being a geeky family, not just any pool, a super cool pool that no one else had, but may want. So mom and dad said sure, you can go out back and dig up yard to build your dream pool. One day mom looked out window and said 'Motz, Eric, you boys stop now! your pool has a few glitches, put the yard back how you found it and get back to work'. Mom and dad were happy their kids and friends only told the others about the pool idea and never started digging up anyone elses back yard. Problem was, a few in that other street, they started digging a hole for one of these new pools before they knew if it would work.

Throughout this the local 'Green' TV station was trying to report what was happening in the street. With so many different reports coming in it was like watching CNN during a cyclone in Florida with live reports coming from places like Alaska and London.

All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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#56

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:49 pm

mariob33 wrote:I am not sure if its strictly a Freescale issue. They didn't propose this design, they only make chips and stuff. It is up to the engineering team at Ceton to do their due diligence before committing on a platform they knew couldn't support the roadmap.

Ceton as a company seems to continually "pseudo" over promise and has a very shoddy record of delivering. I say this because they always seem to have some slipped statement that says we have product X and it will do magic A in period X but none of the statements positions can ever be linked to the actual product release (it's almost bait and switch).

A perfect example is the whole DTS position with the echo. The statement was released, a supposed something existed somewhere, but when it came to actual product development and release silence. This isn't the only example, I purchased the damn iOS, windows, android companion apps with the understanding that streaming to the mobile devices was in the works and was part of the roadmap, so far foolish me. Perhaps there are no real engineers engineering and strictly a group of people developing against a very shaky roadmap. Freescale IMO has little to no culpability here.
Don't get me wrong. I think Ceton is ultimately responsible for making the choice to use FreeScale. That's squarely on Ceton's engineers. But I understand why Ceton chose to blaze a new trail (for more features) instead of taking the road already traveled. Granted it didn't have to be FreeScale, but I at least understand why they went the direction the did. And While acknowledging that the responsibility of choosing the chipset was on Ceton, once that choice was made, Ceton's hands were pretty much tied. They couldn't just pull an I-Dream-Of-Genie, fold their arms, blink, and make everything magically work. If FreeScale was unable to deliver a chip that worked right, it's silly to blame Ceton for not getting everything to work. Blame them for the product choice? Sure. Blame them for the chip not being fixed? Nope. So in that regard, I say all signs point to FreeScale.

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#57

Post by Diverge » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:31 pm

I'm not happy about this. Was looking forward to re-purchasing an Echo when Android was released. Guess I need to officially move on, and stick with my xbox 360, or hope the MS adds something to Xbox One. Or that someone makes a DTCP-IP app with a guide and DVR capabilities for my SiliconDust tuner.

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#58

Post by ajhieb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:10 pm

Diverge wrote:I'm not happy about this. Was looking forward to re-purchasing an Echo when Android was released. Guess I need to officially move on, and stick with my xbox 360, or hope the MS adds something to Xbox One. Or that someone makes a DTCP-IP app with a guide and DVR capabilities for my SiliconDust tuner.
Funny you should say that... I just noticed something here: (per a link on AVS)
http://cetoncorp.com/commercial-products/
Commercial Products
  • - InfiniTV 6 Pro: 6-tuner, commercial grade PCIe-based CableCARD tuner with DTCP-IP
    - Ceton DTCP-IP Client: software client for delivering DTCP-IP-protected content using InfiniTV Pro tuners
...huh, whut?

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TheOsburnFamil

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#59

Post by TheOsburnFamil » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:45 pm

So-- to replace my whole-house DVR system that's a headless XBox360 setup using 5 Xboxes... would take this:

TiVo Mini - $99.99 + $149.99 for lifetime
TiVo Roamio Pro - $599.99 + $499.99 for lifetime

4 TiVo Mini's w/Lifetime = $999.92
TiVo Roamio Pro - $1099.98
Total = $2,099.90

The three main "apps" I use today that force me to use XBoxLiveGold (we don't game online) are Netflix, AmazonPrime, HBOGo.

With the changes to XBoxLive Gold - I'll need 5 individual gold memberships each year . It would take me 8 years to offset those costs.

In short-- there's NO GOOD REPLACEMENT for a true Extender system. Even with everything being equal, the Win7 MS MCE/Xbox experience is still the only good option for CableCARD. I will however be purchasing a bunch of Roku's (or something like them) to I don't have to keep paying for the Xbox Live Gold.

I'll be forced to stick with my current Headless MediaCenter Server and 5 Extenders for the foreseeable future.
Matt O. ...tivo what? ...dish dvr--uh... huh? ...cable dvr fees--you're kidding, right?

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#60

Post by lucidrenegade » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:52 pm

Why did they move away from the Intel SoC that was in the original Echo shown at CES?

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