Ceton devices now supported in NextPVR

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Re: Ceton devices now supported in NextPVR

Post#21 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:30 pm

Does NextPVR work with the Ceton ETH?
bigsid05
 
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Post#22 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:09 pm

bigsid05 wrote:Does NextPVR work with the Ceton ETH?


Quick test. I installed the Ceton drivers on 2012R2 running under Hyper-V and it does pick it up and show 6 tuners and scan all available channels. I get an unhandled exception if I try to run anything but then again I'm running a server OS in Hyper-V.
ewitte
 
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Post#23 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:41 pm

I'm "sub3" who started this thread. I'm not sure if I've posting about NextPVR was against the rules, but it looks like the admins have some how limited my sub3 account, and I can no longer post from it, so I had to create a new sub33 account. Why?
Last edited by sub33 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sub33
 
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Post#24 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:44 pm

bigsid05 wrote:Does NextPVR work with the Ceton ETH?
Yes, it should.
sub33
 
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Post#25 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:45 pm

ewitte wrote:
bigsid05 wrote:Does NextPVR work with the Ceton ETH?


Quick test. I installed the Ceton drivers on 2012R2 running under Hyper-V and it does pick it up and show 6 tuners and scan all available channels. I get an unhandled exception if I try to run anything but then again I'm running a server OS in Hyper-V.
It should be fine running it under Hyper-V. What does the exception say?
sub33
 
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Post#26 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:30 pm

sub33 wrote:
ewitte wrote:
bigsid05 wrote:Does NextPVR work with the Ceton ETH?


Quick test. I installed the Ceton drivers on 2012R2 running under Hyper-V and it does pick it up and show 6 tuners and scan all available channels. I get an unhandled exception if I try to run anything but then again I'm running a server OS in Hyper-V.
It should be fine running it under Hyper-V. What does the exception say?


I wasn't paying too much attention and had to remove it real quick. Found out it really isn't going to work for me anyway because I will be moving to OTA and apparently its not supported :( I would have possibly stayed with Comcast for the very basic channels but from what I hear none of the HD channels are QAM now :(

Just broke down and ordered a hdhomerun
ewitte
 
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Post#27 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:12 pm

My account issue is now sorted, so I'm back on 'sub3'. Thank you!
sub3
 
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Post#28 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:31 pm

That changed fast they dropped my price significantly when I called lol. Will still use ceton but 2012 was just a quick test I will be on windows 8.1. Will use hdhomerun for backup.
ewitte
 
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Post#29 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:20 pm

FYI, NextPVR 3.6.6 was release. Lots of improvements for Ceton users, and general improvements to the application.

The change list can be found here:
http://forums.nextpvr.com/showthread.ph ... e-(5th-Dec)
sub3
 
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Post#30 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:04 am

How does this work along side of WMC? Are there conflicts when both programs want to record simultaneously? I'd like to use this for some recordings and WMC for hbo and other drm stuff. Already have kodi for my blu ray collection, so sick of WMC schedule data.

thx.
icepick
 
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Post#31 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:14 pm

Tagging for interest.
JTScribe
 
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Post#32 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:33 pm

Any possibility of getting NextPVR to integrate with SD's DVR/DRM software and provide a better WMC alternative than what SD may end up providing?
bob_p
 
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Post#33 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:48 am

I suspect we will see at least one fully fleshed dvr suite for PC in 2016. I'm sure it's heck trying to build alternatives to WMC with all the patents M$ owns.

Next PVR would need to become a $ machine to offer DRM support.


DRM... breaking the stuff you bought legit since 1998....
icepick
 
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Post#34 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:33 pm

If NextPVR used the SD DVR software to get DRM and access to SD's recording engine, NextPVR users should be able to pay SD for the right to activate the SD DVR software, and hopefully SD wouldn't require any fees from NextPVR.

Though if SD follows through on their requirement that all recording and playback requires access to their cloud database server, it's going to limit the usability of their product - and may make it difficult for it work with other DVR environments.
bob_p
 
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Post#35 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:13 pm

bob_p wrote:If NextPVR used the SD DVR software to get DRM and access to SD's recording engine, NextPVR users should be able to pay SD for the right to activate the SD DVR software, and hopefully SD wouldn't require any fees from NextPVR.
Honestly, I doubt it'll happen. I suspect SD's DVR will be absolutely bolted down, with very little opportunity for integration. At the end of the day, they've got to live within the very rigorous requirements of CableLab/DTCPIP/etc, which specifies control over how files are stored on disk, protected playback path to the monitor (via HDCP etc).

If SD did want to work with 3rd parties to provide some decent integration, I'd be happy to do it. I just suspect they can't, or won't (since they'll be cannibalizing their own future growth)

I did consider running a Kickstarter campaign to fundraise for the development of a paid CableCard DRM addon for NextPVR, but having watched JRiver try this and fall way short, I've decided I'll save myself the embarrassment of a failed campaign. (It's a pity, because I'm in the industry, so we'll placed to do it...infact, as an experiment, I've had DTCP copy-once/copy-never support working with NextPVR, but it totally ignord the protection requirements...it'll never see the light of day though, because I can't distribute the certs I used)
sub3
 
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Post#36 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:06 pm

sub3 wrote:
bob_p wrote:If NextPVR used the SD DVR software to get DRM and access to SD's recording engine, NextPVR users should be able to pay SD for the right to activate the SD DVR software, and hopefully SD wouldn't require any fees from NextPVR.
Honestly, I doubt it'll happen. I suspect SD's DVR will be absolutely bolted down, with very little opportunity for integration. At the end of the day, they've got to live within the very rigorous requirements of CableLab/DTCPIP/etc, which specifies control over how files are stored on disk, protected playback path to the monitor (via HDCP etc).

If SD did want to work with 3rd parties to provide some decent integration, I'd be happy to do it. I just suspect they can't, or won't (since they'll be cannibalizing their own future growth)

I did consider running a Kickstarter campaign to fundraise for the development of a paid CableCard DRM addon for NextPVR, but having watched JRiver try this and fall way short, I've decided I'll save myself the embarrassment of a failed campaign. (It's a pity, because I'm in the industry, so we'll placed to do it...infact, as an experiment, I've had DTCP copy-once/copy-never support working with NextPVR, but it totally ignord the protection requirements...it'll never see the light of day though, because I can't distribute the certs I used)


Jriver's campaign also failed (aside from possible lack of interest) IMO for the following reasons:

1) They had horrible, horrible (or basically none) marketing for the Kickstarter - abysmal. They had no idea what they were/should have been doing in that regard. So many users at their own forums state how they were not aware of it and only stumbled upon a blurb at the bottom of an email from JRIVER about another topic that brought the Kickstarter to their attention. There was no substantial promotion done by Jriver aside from replying to/making a forum thread at 2-3 sites. That's a joke when you're trying to raise funds. They really dropped the ball here. They should have reached out to as many tech sites/publications/forums as possible; among other things.

2) They chose to launch/run the Kickstarter during the holiday season, when people are strapped for cash/already spending cash on other things. Horrible, horrible timing on their part and to me shows they didn't think everything out when you take this and the marketing failure into account.

3) They were following SD's Kickstarter in too close of a time span. How many decided not to invest in Jriver because they already backed SD; I couldn't tell you. But it's feasable they lost out because they ran their campaign so close to the end of SD's. Obviously before SD's campaign would have been the best timing for them, but they should have put more space between the end of SD's campaign and theirs. This also would have alleviated point number 2.

What I'm saying is - I wouldn't necessarily say you should let Jriver's campaign failure dissuade you/make you think there's no chance for you to run a successful campaign. It very well might be SD gobbled up all the support/money/interest there is with their campaign; but Jriver messed up enough and just went so 'amateur hour' with their own campaign that it's not entirely clear if SD did gobble up all there is.
Ed 
 
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Post#37 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:30 pm

I agree with Ed. The failure of the JRiver campaign was due to poor marketing of the campaign and not a lack of interest. While I was willing to invest, I never did, because JRiver failed to adequately explain what they planned to do - and how it would compare to WMC.

It's pretty clear now that SD (at least in their initial release) will fall quite a bit short of a viable WMC replacement. They've made a few design decisions (no program guide grid, requiring online access to their server to do anything with recording) that will be challenges for current WMC users. And we are still missing any specifications on what they intend to deliver in the final product (hopefully it's significantly more than their latest "progress builds").

It appears SD intends to provide their software to 3rd parties. If they were able to provide their DRM/recording engine to NextPVR (or others), and it could be integrated without unreasonable restrictions - that could be a good and hopefully much less expensive solution for NextPVR (or JRiver, ...), than starting from scratch or licensing PlayReady from Microsoft.

Looking at this from a business perspective - there should be enough of a market among current WMC users to fund a WMC replacement. Not only will there be some development costs up front to create the first product release - the business model must also provide enough ongoing funding to cover maintenance and product evolution (which Microsoft stopped doing long ago).

If NextPVR (or JRiver or Plex or Emby or ...) had a clear migration path for current WMC/cablecard/DRM users - for a "whole home DVR", providing at least as much capability as the current WMC, I'd be willing to pay both an upfront software purchase fee (which could be done through Kickstarter) and monthly or annual subscription fees to cover both program guide and software updates.

After Microsoft announced end-of-life for WMC, I installed a Comcast X1 DVR. And while it is a huge improvement over their previous DVR - and has a number of nice features (such as easy integration between live, recorded and streamed programs), as a DVR, it still is far behind WMC - and I'd probably only consider jumping on the X1 AnyRoom DVR (with multiple STBs for secondary TVs) when WMC eventually dies and we had no other solution.

I haven't look at TiVo recently - and if we don't have any WMC replacements in the pipeline, I'll probably evaluate that too - as a second option. But my first option would always remain having something like WMC, NextPVR, JRiver, Plex, Emby, ... - that would give me more freedom in how I watch my programs (commercial skipping!).

How much would it cost to add DRM live TV/recording/playback support to NextPVR? About how long might that take? And, when done, how would this compare to WMC on Windows, and what would we use as a replacement for our Xbox 360 extenders? And how much would it cost on an annual basis to cover software evolution and maintenance?

If there was a credible plan for providing a WMC replacement, it should be possible to do some surveys - to determine potential interest - and based on the size of that community, adjust the per "home" upfront and annual fees needed to provide sustainable funding for the project.

Don't let JRiver's failure or the challenges we continue to see with SD's Kickstarter project discourage others from trying to build a viable WMC replacement product...
bob_p
 
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Post#38 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:02 pm

bob_p wrote:It appears SD intends to provide their software to 3rd parties. If they were able to provide their DRM/recording engine to NextPVR (or others), and it could be integrated without unreasonable restrictions - that could be a good and hopefully much less expensive solution for NextPVR (or JRiver, ...), than starting from scratch or licensing PlayReady from Microsoft.
I've not seen any indication that's true. I've seen a few users optomistically hoping that might be an option, but I've seen no comments from SiliconDust indicating that might be the case. I'm not sure how mcuh SiliconDust would realistically be able to do on this front, while living within the restrictions placed on them.

How much would it cost to add DRM live TV/recording/playback support to NextPVR?
JRiver probably weren't far off on their goal of requiring US$100K for the project.

About how long might that take?
The rest of application is already there, and in use by several thousand people, so it's only really focusing on the DRM side of things. Realistically, it's about 3 months.

And, when done, how would this compare to WMC on Windows, and what would we use as a replacement for our Xbox 360 extenders?
It's not trying to be Windows Media Center, but it is a fairly similiar type of application. You can see a selection of screenshots at the start of this thread. The users seem pretty happy with it's UI, but I'm always monitoring feedback and requests from users, and looking to improve things.

Extenders would be a potential issue. NextPVR is currently a pretty decent whole-home DVR, with good support for extenders. It allows people to use Kodi/Emby as a client on numerous platforms (Rasperry Pi, Macs, PC, etc), and Samsung/LG smart TVs and BluRay players, but this will be at odds with the restrictions on the protected content by content owners. It's likely protected channels/recordings will not be streamed to these types of clients. NextPVR client PCs could be used to watch these though (so you could have clients using Intel NUC, GigaByte Brix, Intel compute stick etc).

And how much would it cost on an annual basis to cover software evolution and maintenance?
I've haven't seriously considered going down this path, so I haven't done the numbers.

NextPVR is currently a free application, and would stay that way. If I decided to go down this path, CableCard customers in the US would have the option of paying for a 'Protected Content Addon', which would give access to these extra channels. Maybe something like a one-off $30 payment, but that'd of course depend on the level of interest, and may not be sustainable at that sort of pricing. Make it too expensive, and you loose a lot of potential customers. Make recurring costs, and loose a lot more users.
sub3
 
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Post#39 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:26 pm

For those of us using Xbox 360s as extenders (I have 6), it's not reasonable to expect that we'll be able to use them with a WMC replacement - since Microsoft is in the process of ramping down the 360s.

A low cost PC (PC-on-a-stick?) could be a reasonable "extender", as long as it provided full access to the functionality from a 10 foot user interface (i.e., media remote control). Supporting Smart TV apps is even a better solution - because those apps already are allowed to support copy protected content - and don't require any additional hardware.

I suspect that WMC users would be willing to pay something to have a WMC replacement - if we had an alternate product that provided at least the same functionality - and someone committed to support and evolve it. While we've been using WMC successfully for years - most of the development of WMC was done before HD programming was the standard - the thumbnails are still designed for 4:3 SD programs - and not 16:9 HD!

SD had almost 4,000 backers. JRiver was only able to get a very small number of potential backers (likely due to poor marketing).

If you launched a Kickstarter campaign, I would recommend you explain exactly how NextPVR would compare to WMC (with extenders) - providing a clear and simple explanation of how WMC users would be able to migrate over to NextPVR, along with a realistic timeline. I would also indicate your plans for charging for this solution once it's commercially released - any upfront fee plus any monthly/annual subscriptions (I'm paying a monthly fee for Plex right now - so a monthly fee for NextPVR would be reasonable). Then offer several tiers of Kickstarter support possibly something like - $25 for access to the pre-release builds, $50 adds a license plus 1 year of service and $100 adds lifetime service. While you could try to bundle hardware (like SD did), it's probably not worthwhile doing that.

If you had a clear plan of what you planned to deliver (and maintain it) - and when - and it was clear how it would compare to my current WMC environment, I'd likely be willing to commit to the $100 level. And I suspect others would be willing to commit to spending something.

Plus, if the tuner vendors (for the tuners you plan to support) believed you could help them sell new tuners, you might be able to get them to help you with marketing of the campaign. Even though SD has their own campaign, they are a hardware company - and if NextPVR with DRM can expand their customer base - they should view you not as a competitor - but as a partner.
bob_p
 
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Post#40 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:35 pm

bob_p wrote:For those of us using Xbox 360s as extenders (I have 6), it's not reasonable to expect that we'll be able to use them with a WMC replacement - since Microsoft is in the process of ramping down the 360s.
You're unlikely to see any other software to use these devices. They're not open devices, and there is pretty much no way any other software will be able to use them. They're pretty much unusable junk outside of WMC.
sub3
 
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