Whole home HTPC solution design

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hossnine

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Whole home HTPC solution design

#1

Post by hossnine » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:22 am

Sorry if this isn't the place to post this but given it has a bit of everything and 7MC is at the core of things I figured I'd start here.

I've been fortunate to have a nice home theater set up but it is time to bring it up to date with current features. Basically I would like to expand it to a whole home solution which includes streaming to other PCs, iPads, iPods, etc.

In my current set up I have a Win 7 PC set up using 7MC. I get cable content through a HD-PVR connected to the cable company STB as well as OTA to a tuner card in the PC (old but does OTA HD). Media Center is dressed up using DVRMSToolbox, ShowAnalyzer, fdshow, Media Control, and Media Master. I also have VideoRedo and a few other tools which allow me to archive off Recorded TV in MKV format. Wanting to be able to extend to non-Windows devices I installed Serviio to stream my library to the living room via DLNA compliant blu-ray player. All this works great but I'm limited. The solution while functional is limited and too piece mill. Add to that, I'm fed up with large cable bills of which more than $30 a month is equipment rental and DVR fees.

What I would like to do is put together a whole house solution that will let me stream live tv (w/guide and channel control) and my media library to all the TVs, computers, and devices (iPod, iPad, etc) in a clean interface that doesn't wig out if the cable company sets copy protection (DRM) on their stream.

I've looked at a lot of different options and solutions but they all have holes, gotchas, or just don't look like they work well. Starting out at the STB I see a number of very nice multi-tuner M-Card based solutions out there by Ceton, HDHomeRun, Hauppauge, etc but they all only work with Media Center and honor copy protection. I'm not a thief or trying to do anything illegal. I just want to be able watch my media within our home (fair use).

The closest thing I've seen to putting together a solution is to buy own STBs, a few more Hauppauge HD-PVRs, and then XBox 360s for each of the TVs. That would allow me to have live tv with channel change (media center extender) and use Serviio to stream the library via DLNA. My problem with this solution is that it is expensive, doesn't have a nice clean interface (wife has to be able to use it and like it), and still leaves me researching a solution for streaming content to our portable devices.

So, knowing that there many very good minds out there, does anyone here have any recommendations for a good solution that won't put me in the poor house? Kudos to Venom51's solution. It is nice but I'm hoping there is a less expensive solution that can be put together.

Thanks much.

Danno100

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#2

Post by Danno100 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:28 pm

I'll jump in with my (limited) thoughts. I'm also looking for an inexpensive whole home solution. For TV's, I'd recommend the XBOX 360 as an extender for all your TV's I think that is the least inexpensive overall solution. For devices like the iPad/iPod, Remote Potato does some of what you want. For other computers, you can use network tuners, but I don't think you are going to get protected TV content.
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richard1980

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#3

Post by richard1980 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:34 pm

You have to make a choice between a good clean easy to use interface and circumventing DRM. With today's technology, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

That said, you can use a combination of both to achieve your goal. The cleanest and easiest way to set it up would be to buy one or more CableCARD tuners and set up your main HTPC. Then buy some extenders for each of your TVs, and forget about streaming to DLNA devices. That gives you the same UI across every TV in your home and access to all your content at all viewing locations in your home. That leaves you with trying to get your content on your portable devices. For that, you aren't going to find an easy solution, but the easiest solution would be to use an extra Xbox 360 to play the content and use an HD-PVR or Colossus to record a DRM-free version. From there, use whatever software you need to convert the resulting file to a format compatible with your portable devices.

adam1991

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#4

Post by adam1991 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:15 pm

in a clean interface that doesn't wig out if the cable company sets copy protection (DRM) on their stream.
Right now you're worrying about something that doesn't exist.

So stop worrying about that, and move forward with what Richard said. Trust me, the whole Media Center/extender thing just plain works for 95% of what you want to accomplish.

In addition, RIGHT NOW because you DON'T have DRM, it's trivial to set up DTb or similar to process your recordings to a nice .mp4 using H.264, and then put them somewhere that your portable devices can see and grab those slimmed down files. So really, Media Center today accomplishes 100% of what you want.

Richard is right--you've needlessly complicated your life by trying to force DLNA onto all of this. Stop that.

IF you start getting DRM issues, Richard's method is the most elegant I've seen. But that's a big IF. Right now, you DON'T have DRM issues, so stop trying to create an overly complex system that solves a problem you don't have.

Extend both recorded and live TV to other TVs using XBox, and make the family happy. XBox can also see your other media files--music, photos, videos. No problem. Process recorded TV files using DTb or MCEBuddy or whatever, if you want them on portable devices. Ditch DLNA. Ditch the cableco's rental fees for crap hardware.

This is exactly what I've done. Sure, when I built the system I spent around $1500 total--$833 of which was Ceton card and two new XBoxen. The rest was building a dedicated PC and buying misc. remotes and whatnot from Ebay,, buying ShowAnalyzer, and then buying a new switch and rewiring the house because what the hell, it's time to go gigabit.

But I did some math. My brother went to U-Verse at the same time I built my 7MC system. We both have a central DVR and two remote TVs, with any TV having access to live streams as well as recorded programs, and with any TV being able to schedule recordings. We both have broadband. We both have the same channel lineup (no HBO/Showtime). He rents everything from AT&T and has access to PPV and On Demand stuff. His internet access is 7 megabit down, 1 up. His bill is $130/month. He's comfortable with that, because he doesn't want to fiddle. Me, I don't have access to PPV or On Demand stuff. My broadband is 15 megabit down, 2 up. My bill is $81/month--$50 less. In 30 months, my system will have paid for itself compared to his $130/month.

Oh--and I get all the flexibility that a 7MC system provides, including the sainted commercial skip. Twice the net speed plus commercial skip, plus being able to pull shows off the box and keep them or burn them to DVD or whatever, all for $50/month less.

I've looked at a lot of different options and solutions but they all have holes, gotchas, or just don't look like they work well. Starting out at the STB I see a number of very nice multi-tuner M-Card based solutions out there by Ceton, HDHomeRun, Hauppauge, etc but they all only work with Media Center and honor copy protection. I'm not a thief or trying to do anything illegal. I just want to be able watch my media within our home (fair use).
But RIGHT NOW you don't have DRM/copy protection issues. So work with what you have RIGHT NOW.

I don't have any DRM issues at all; my cableco doesn't flag even the Starz/Encore stuff that comes down.

hossnine

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#5

Post by hossnine » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Some excellent feedback and I thank you all very much. Most of what has been said is spot on. Some is because I didn't articulate my goals clearly enough. And then too much because I'm just obstinate in thinking that Media Center (or another package) should be able to everything I'd like to do. Based on the wonderful feedback, here are some further refinements;
richard1980 wrote:You have to make a choice between a good clean easy to use interface and circumventing DRM. With today's technology, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Your point “With today’s technology,” captures a big part of my frustration as we all know that it isn’t so much an issue of technology but of restrictions imposed by a greedy media industry that believes we should buy individual copies of content for each device we would like to play it on coupled with less than scrupulous individuals who wrongfully want to pirate the content. The point of "can't have my cake and eat it too" is definitely one of my obstinate points. And my obstinance is compounded by my current setup which gets me pretty darn close. Well at least for an individual system standpoint. Either way, it adds to my hard headedness when I try to scale it (more tuners) out to fit the whole house. Sorry done whining. 

Something I failed to include in my original post is I prefer the MKV container over that of WTV. In my set up today when Media Center records a show I have processes that will massage the file and then re-encode it using my desired quality settings in a MKV container file. In fact, my entire library has been re-encoded providing very nice quality video at a fraction of the disk space. Thanks to a couple nice Media Center additions I can watch my library in Media Center. While it isn’t quite as smooth as the native Media Center WTV playback I can still fast forward, rewind, etc.

That re-encoding process is where I get into the fun of dealing with the DRM variable as well as the ramifications from upscaling. I’ve got to do homework to better understand how Media Center Extenders integrate with Media Center. Specifically how the XBOX 360 reacts/accepts tweaks and add-ins applied to MC.
richard1980 wrote:Then buy some extenders for each of your TVs, and forget about streaming to DLNA devices. That gives you the same UI across every TV in your home and access to all your content at all viewing locations in your home. That leaves you with trying to get your content on your portable devices. For that, you aren't going to find an easy solution, but the easiest solution would be to use an extra Xbox 360 to play the content and use an HD-PVR or Colossus to record a DRM-free version. From there, use whatever software you need to convert the resulting file to a format compatible with your portable devices.
Definitely not married to DLNA in any way shape or form as its presentation isn't very robust. I use it right now as it affords means to extend my library to the living room system. If I achieved my goal of staying inside MC then it wouldn’t be needed.

I do have a question for those using XBOX 360 as an extender. In an XBOX 360 extender scenario, how log and how many clicks does it take to get to the guide or live tv? My wife and kids want things to be simple. Have to make sure it isn’t a non-starter.

In the past I’ve stayed away from testing the XBOX 360 as an extender primarily because the form factor and noise level but with the Kinect, other technologies coming down the pipe, and feedback here I think I just need to bite the bullet and get one and start working it out.

Thanks again everyone. Sorry for writing a book.

adam1991

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#6

Post by adam1991 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:32 pm

New XBox are very quiet. They're also small enough.

It takes one click to get to recorded TV, or two clicks to get to live TV. See, what you do is set your XBox to boot directly into Media center. When it comes on and finds your Media Center, it looks EXACTLY like your Media Center when it turns on. EXACTLY. Don't think of the extender as some sort of "junior" component that "mostly" does what it needs to do. When you're at the XBox running Media Center, it looks and acts exactly like when you're sitting at your Media Center PC--including deleting shows, setting recordings, setting settings on how your 7MC box works, and so on. It's quite literally a window into MC that's running on your main MC computer.

I use Logitech Harmony 300s as my remotes; the "Menu" button goes right to the main Media Center menu (with the focus on the Recorded TV icon), the yellow button goes directly to the recorded TV content, and the blue button goes directly to the guide. So everything I need is one click away no matter what.

If you've never experienced XBox as an extender, you owe it to yourself to do so before you go any further. You'll be amazed at what you didn't know, and at what you're missing.

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#7

Post by hossnine » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:35 pm

Thanks Adam1991. I'm going to start watching for a new generation 360 with Kinect bundle. If I test this it will be in the living room and I've wanted to see how good Kinect is so figure there is no time like the present. :)

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#8

Post by adam1991 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:54 pm

I've heard great things about Kinect (the "kid" who invented it comes from my home town), plus I've heard about MS integrating it with MC at some point.

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#9

Post by blueiedgod » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:20 pm

Depending on your provider, you may not have to deal with DRM at all. We have Verizon FiOS, and there are no DRM restrictions.

Even with the DRM restriction, using media center extenders (either the discontinued offerings from D-link, Linksys, and HP, or the XBOX) you will have no problem streaming content through out the house.

Ceton or the similar offerings with CableCard provide the cleanest and most streamlined approach to encrypted cable TV, with the highest video quality.

I am using Linksys DMA extenders through out the house (4), and main TV is connected to the HTPC. Wife, mother in law, parents and kids Acceptance factor is high.

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w84no1

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#10

Post by w84no1 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:39 pm

hossnine wrote:
I do have a question for those using XBOX 360 as an extender. In an XBOX 360 extender scenario, how log and how many clicks does it take to get to the guide or live tv? My wife and kids want things to be simple. Have to make sure it isn’t a non-starter.
I used an addin "Control Panel 2.0 Beta" created my Michael Welter(mikinho) that boots my Media Center and Xbox 360 boot into liveTV. You can change it to go straight to recorded TV or the Guide. I have it in an email, but I can't seem to find it on the web.

While I am at it I will give a little detail on my whole house setup.

I have 2 QAM tuners and 2 HD-PVRs connected to 2 DirecTV boxes on my Dual Core Media center. I use DVBLink for HDPVR and the network pack to get live TV to all the computers in the house. I have 1 Atom ION computer, 2 P4 desktops with ATI HD GPUs, 2 AMD Fusion APU netbooks and 1 Xbox 360. I can watch LiveTV at any PC/360 in the house and also stream netflix at each PC. A limit of the xbox 360 is that you have to have a Xbox Live Gold account and you have to exit media center and return back to the dashboard to stream Netflix.
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