29/59 Bug

[HTPC Specs:]

I am experiencing the 29/59 Hz bug with some OTA SD recorded programs. When playing back with WMC7 every so often there is a stutter or jerkiness in the image. Displaying the 4-1-1-Info, the frame rate is usually 59.9401 Hz. But when the image stutters the frame rate jumps to 29.97.

From what I’ve read it appears that using a video card is a workaround or fix.

I don’t notice any visible glitches in HD OTA programs WMC7. However when playing with MPC-HC it's info does show irregularities. If I’m going to cure the 29/59 bug in SD content (or in my case 59/29) I might as well be proactive in trying to take care of any other frame rate issues. Do you think a video card will help the frame rate issue mentioned in this thread, or is other software really needed?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2429

I’d prefer to keep it simple & not use any extra software & hopefully just use an inexpensive video card to fix any & all problems. I’m new to HTPC and don’t really have a firm grasp on the pros & cons of using hardware versus software to process video.

Any comments or recommendations about trying an HD 5450, HD 6450 or GT430 video card?

[HTPC Specs:]

I can confirm that a GT-430 or GT-640 (evga) seems to handle the problem fairly well. You do need specific drivers though that don't exhibit the behavior on these cards. If you go this route I can tell you which drivers work best. The ATI cards I unfortunately have no idea on as I usually buy Nvidia products. I'm sure someone will post which cards from ATI work best.
newfiend

Sent from my SGH-i937 using Board Express

[HTPC Specs:]

I can confirm that the HD 6450 works too. I tested one in my rig for other reasons, and played some 29/59 content to verify that it works successfully. The one I tested is linked below. It's a very inexpensive card and does the job well. It's fanless, so no noise to worry about. It's not a gaming card, but it works fine for HTPC.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814121439

[HTPC Specs:]

Newegg has this one on sale. I don't know how quiet it is, but it's only $15 after rebate.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814127584

[HTPC Specs:]

That little fan is probably a screamer.

[HTPC Specs:]

I understand what you are saying. However wouldn't most video cards with fans have small ones? I just haven't seen any fanless cards with a great sale price. If I have to spend more is it worth holding out for a GT 430 on sale?

From this AnandTech article the GT 430 seems like one to get, and the 6450 seems like the one not to get.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/disc ... shootout/4

Other than fixing the 29/59 bug, any idea what other improvements a 6450 card will have compared to my G620 integrated graphics?

[HTPC Specs:]

My GT430 and GT640 both have fans.. Their small but really are quite quiet compared to the CPU fan. I never got the need for a fanless graphics card in a HTPC.. Once the case is closed I can't hear the CPU, graphics or case fans at all and once the tv is going and the AVR level is to my desired liking the fans are the last thing I would hear. I guess some peoples hearing is more acute than mine but I have never heard the gpu fan on either card. The GT430 is a good little card. Others claim better color levels with the ATI but after a few small adjustments in the NVIDIA control panel I think my color levels look pretty darn good. I guess it's all subjective.
newfiend

Sent from my SGH-i937 using Board Express

[HTPC Specs:]

Newfiend is a friend of mine (online, anyway... I've never met him in person... but I'd love to meet him). Small fans turn faster (and louder) than large fans. Yes, some video cards have large fans... some of them are huge. Some of them are quiet. But... having no fan is always quieter than having a large or small fan.

The lack of a fan is always quieter than any fan, no matter what size it is. The link you provided does not specify the card model number. It only specifies the brand (MSI, Saphire, etc). The card I recommended is 1GB of video RAM and 64-bit. There are other HD 6450 cards that are less than 64-bit or less memory that do not perform as well... the one I listed works very well as an HTPC card. The GT-430 works well too. That's what I have in my rig. If you look at my specs, you'll find the card that I use. It works great... but it costs more than the HD 6450 card I listed, and it won't fit in a low-profile PC. The HD 6450 card works perfectly, costs less, and fits in a low-profile PC. This is based on my own testing. What more do you want? I have no financial reasons for this recommendation.

[HTPC Specs:]

For some reason the link works for me.
The card description is MSI R6450-MD1GD3/LP Radeon HD 6450, 1GB 64-bit DDR3, PCI Express 2.1 x16, HDCP Ready Low Profile Ready Video Card.

[HTPC Specs:]

I understand what you are saying. However wouldn't most video cards with fans have small ones? I just haven't seen any fanless cards with a great sale price. If I have to spend more is it worth holding out for a GT 430 on sale?

From this AnandTech article the GT 430 seems like one to get, and the 6450 seems like the one not to get.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/disc ... shootout/4

Other than fixing the 29/59 bug, any idea what other improvements a 6450 card will have compared to my G620 integrated graphics?

from your link above... i think the last line says it all..but either card will work very well

"If you prefer only AMD cards, the 6570 is the perfect HTPC card. The set of post processing options provided is very broad compared to what is provided by NVIDIA. All post processing options are enabled irrespective of ESVP, even for 60 fps videos. It has the highest HQV benchmark score of any HTPC-oriented GPU that we have evaluated so far. We didn't encounter any bitrate limitations with video playback. The pesky 23.976 Hz refresh rate may be a hit or miss depending on your setup, but it is way better than Intel's implementation. The lack of support for open source software developers and pricing relative to the NVIDIA GT 430 are probably the only complaints we can file against the 6570.

If you prefer only NVIDIA cards, the GT 430 is the perfect HTPC card for which you can obtain a passively cooled model. For enthusiasts, the ideal card would be one having more shaders than the GT 430 (for better madVR processing) and also the new VPU engine. However, there is no card fitting those criteria in the market right now. Our first impressions of the GT 430 last October were not favorable. However, driver updates have finally brought to fore the capabilities of the GPU. NVIDIA's support for the 3D ecosystem is better compared to AMD's. Support for custom refresh rates is a godsend for the videophiles and advanced HTPC users. The extensive support from open source applications is a definite plus. It is no wonder that most of the multimedia application developers swear by NVIDIA cards. The video bitrate limitations (not something one would encounter in real life), lack of comprehensive post processing options and the post-processing results when compared to the AMD 6570 (quite subjective) are probably the only complaints we can file against the GT 430.

If you are not in either camp, I would suggest going with the GT 430"

I agree with Brian on fanless is always going to be quieter.. but like I said before I have never heard the gpu fan ..small as it is it just is not audible enough to even worry about. Your cpu fan will make more noise than the GT430 fan ever will and my GT430 is close to 2 years old now and still makes very minimal noise if any at all.

[HTPC Specs:]

I’ve read, looked, searched & asked. But I still don’t know why one would use all types of 3rd party software versus a video card in order correct or improve the video. Some people just recommend using certain video cards. Other people use madVR, reclock & a bunch of other software. What does the software do that the video card does not do? Does it make things “more better”?

And of course some just use the integrated graphics, which was my intention. The HD OTA looks good to me. But I sometimes record SD OTA and noticed some stutter which turned out to be the 29/59 bug.

I just ordered the $15 after rebate 6450 video card from Newegg and will see how it does. At least in this chart it is more powerful than my G620 integrated graphics. If a GT430 ever comes up on a good sale perhaps I’ll get one also.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gam ... 107-7.html

At this point in time noise should not be an issue because I have the HTPC hidden in a corner behind an end table.

[HTPC Specs:]

As far as the software solutions you mentioned.. I have never used any software solution to correct the 29/59 issue (other than selecting certain drivers for the video card that do not exhibit the behavior). Never had to use madVR or reclock to correct 29/59.

I guess you could say that it is a software issue of sorts as it can corrected by adjusting driver settings( or builds). Nvidia has done this somehow, as has ATI as both Mfg's have had issues with 29/59. They were both able to fix it by updating (fixing) their drivers.

Your Integrated graphics specs are listed below:

Graphics Specifications
Processor Graphics = Intel® HD Graphics
Graphics Base Frequency = 850 MHz
Graphics Max Dynamic Frequency = 1.1 GHz
Intel® Quick Sync Video = No
Intel® InTru™ 3D Technology = No
Intel® Insider™ = No
Intel® Wireless Display = No
Intel® Flexible Display Interface (Intel® FDI) = Yes
Intel® Clear Video HD Technology = No (This is kind of a bummer .. more info on this here http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ ... neral.html )
Dual Display Capable = Yes
# of Displays Supported = 2

For reference purposes the GT430 specs below:
Interface
InterfacePCI Express 2.0 x16
Chipset
Chipset Manufacturer = NVIDIA GPU GeForce GT 430 (Fermi)Core Clock 700MHz Shader Clock 1400MHz CUDA Cores96
Memory
Effective Memory Clock = 1200MHz
Memory Size = 1GB
Memory Interface 64-bitMemory TypeDDR3
3D API
DirectX = DirectX 11
OpenGLOpenGL 4.1
Ports = HDMI1 x HDMID-SUB1 x D-SUBDVI1 x DVI
General = RAMDAC 400 MHz
Max Resolution 2560 x 1600
System Requirements = Minimum of a 300 Watt power supply.

The advantages to a dedicated GPU in your case would be (if using this card) below..

Blu-Ray 3D Support
Enable a theater quality 3D in your home with seamless support for 1080p Blu-Ray 3D discs across any compatible 3D viewing system over HDMI, including active-shutter glasses and passive polarized displays.

Hardware Video Decode Acceleration
The combination of high-definition video decode acceleration and post-processing that delivers unprecedented picture clarity, smooth video, accurate color, and precise image scaling for movies and video.

TrueHD and DTS-HD Audio Bitstreaming Support
Full support for TrueHD and DTS-HD advanced lossless multi-channel HD audio codecs brings the rich sound of the master recording to your living room.

NVIDIA CUDA™ Technology
CUDA technology unlocks the power of the GPU’s processor cores to accelerate the most demanding tasks such as video transcoding, physics simulation, ray tracing, and more, delivering incredible performance improvements over traditional CPUs.

The Nvidia cards also include PureVideo HD more info on that here http://www.nvidia.com/content/purevideohd/pv_learn.html
PureVideo HD technology is the combination of drivers and a dedicated video-processing core on NVIDIA GeForce GPUs that deliver superb video quality with minimal CPU usage and low power consumption.

I have always had a better graphics experience with a dedicated GPU.. ATI and Nvidia both have been at the Graphics game much longer than Intel. They know their stuff pretty well. My first HTPC had a Nvidia based motherboard with integrated graphics and it was "ok".. But after adding a GT240 to that build the system seemed more responsive and all the small issues I had went away. I then upgraded to a GT430 the day it was released and used that card up until a few weeks ago.
In regards to 29/59 adding a video card and the correct drivers can make all the difference. Usually video playback is smoother and just the lack of 29/59 flicker is worth every penny. Off loading all the Video processing to a GPU takes a load off the CPU as well. Think of it as having 2 processors in your PC.. one for graphics and one for calculations.. it's just "more better" as you put it.

[HTPC Specs:]

When I was referring to using software to correct or improve the video I was not necessarily referring to or limiting it to the 29/59 bug.

This is one example. I still don’t understand what’s the advantage of using all this stuff.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1357375/advan ... etup-guide

The card I ordered was the HD 6450 which is below the GT 430 in regards to performance. I don’t plan on using the HTPC for Blu-ray because I have a Blu-ray player.

I’ve seen reviews comparing the GT430 to the HD5450 & HD6450, but I’ve been unable to see any comparisons between the Intel HD Graphics and any of the above.

I’ll let you know how the video card works after I get it.

[HTPC Specs:]

The guide you linked to is in regards to MPC-HC which is an extremely light-weight media player for Windows.
The player supports all common video and audio file formats available for playback.

It's basically a lightweight version of Windows Media Player that can be used for home cinema... It involves installing codec's and filters that aren't needed for use with WMC. In fact installing these can actually mess up the windows codecs and actually cause more problems than you are already having.

I try and not install any excess codecs or filters as messing these up can casue lots of headaches and eventually making you reinstall Windows itself just to correct the problem and break live TV playback completely. (I've had to reinstall windows myself to fix things... not fun).

If your not using MPC-HC I wouldn't bother with any of that to correct your issues.. its just going to make it worse.
Install the Video Card, once it's in post here on TGB.tv and ask about settings tweaks to get the best picture quality out of your ATI card. I am sure someone will post them for you.
Good Luck I think once you have the card in and the settings correct you should be pretty happy.
newfiend~

[HTPC Specs:]

That’s why I don’t understand why MPC-HC is used if all those 3rd party programs are needed to make it work properly

I also do not want to install any excess codecs or filters & have not done so, at least not intentionally. I installed only MPC-HC because there are a few miscellaneous video files on my other PC that I might want to look at. Also WMC7 on the HTPC can access the desktop Video Library but appears to only find the mpeg videos/movies. It does not recognize the VIDEO_TS files, probably because it’s not expecting them to be in the Video Library.

IOW it appears WMC7 only finds mpeg files in the Video Library and VIDEO_TS files in the Recorded TV Library, which does not exist on the desktop PC. It was kind of a toss up if I should install VLC or MPC-HC in order to use shared Libraries and/or play other format videos. Anyway I flipped a coin & ended up with MPC-HC.

[HTPC Specs:]

The following table lists the video file types that are supported in Media Center.

Video file types (format) / File name extensions

Windows Media files = .wm, .wmv, and .asf

AVCHD files
(including Dolby Digital audio) = .m2ts and .m2t

Apple QuickTime files = .mov and .qt

AVI files = .avi

Windows Recorded TV Show files = .wtv and .dvr-ms

MPEG-4 movie files = .mp4, .mov, and .m4v

MPEG-2 movie files = .mpeg, .mpg, .mpe, .m1v, .mp2, .mpv2, .mod, and .vob

MPEG-1 movie files = .m1v

Motion JPEG files = .avi and .mov

Note : Some video file types might not be supported when viewed on a Media Center Extender device. For example, some Extenders don't support AVCHD files or Apple QuickTime files.

What file types are you trying to play that are on the other PC? As you can see WMC has support for many file types. If you let me know what container your files are in you are trying to play I may be able to help you out without having to install yet another media player and excess codecs.

File structure may be part of your problem.. Have you tried Moving the movies (Video_TS) to its own "movies" folder and then pointing Media Centers Movie Library to that folder by using Tasks/Settings > Media Libraries > Movies > Add folders to the Library
From here you can select "on this computer" or a "networked location" (another PC with a shared library) Etc..

Make sure your Videos are in the Video section and Media Center's librarys are pointed at the correct folders and files..
As far as playing Video_TS files have a look at this thread and see if this applys to you as well.. http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows ... 50690.aspx
Read the thread and about half way down is a post by Mikinho see if that helps you out playing Video_TS as well as correcting the folder structure as mentioned above.

I use a program called Media Browser for all my movies. I prefer it's look and set up for movies vs. WMC's Movie Library. There is also another plug in called My Movies. Googling these may interest you. There is some set up involved but the end result is quite nice.

To be honest I do not think you will end up needing VLC or MPC-HC. Let me know what file types you are attempting to play that are not supported in WMC and I'll try and help you out.
newfiend~

[HTPC Specs:]

WMC7 on the desktop PC will find the VIDEO_TS files in the Video Library but when trying to play only the audio works & the screen stays blue.

I have to click on the VIDEO_TS file in Windows Explorer & then open it in WMC in order for it to work. At least I thought it used to. But I just tried this again & WMP shows up as an option & but does not play. And WMC does not even show up. Hmmm, now I don’t know what is going on. Maybe it was mpeg I was previously playing.

I could create a Movies Library for the VIDEO_TS files, which would mean taking them out of the Video Library. Right now all video items, no matter what format, are in the Video Library & I’d rather not start splitting them up based on format types. I have VIDEO_TS, .mpg, .ISO and .flv formats.

[HTPC Specs:]

Basically you are going to have to seperate them... I know you do not want to do this but it should make things work. Here is another thread over at WEC regarding Video_TS and .ISO files. Unfortunately Folder structure is important when it comes to WMC and or Media Browser/My Movies.
http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows ... 81664.aspx

Since you installed WMP-HC I would check to make sure that WMP is set as the defualt DVD Player and not WMP-HC
you can do this by clicking Start > Default Programs (on the right) > Change Auto Play settings
For DVD Movie make sure it's set to "Play DVD Movie Using Windows Media Player".
Click Save on the lower right corner and close the window. It could be that when you installed WMP-HC it set itself as the defualt DVD playback software and is messing things up in WMC. WMC uses WMP as it's backbone for Media Playback.

Another way things may work better for you would be Using Media Browser for your Movies. More info on that here http://www.digitalgeekery.com/513/how-t ... ia-center/

and here http://www.mediabrowser.tv

Your .mpg files should be supported by default in WMC. The .flv files are adobe flash player files. Installing Adobe Flash Player should hopefully allow you to watch those files.

As a test try moving one of the Video_TS folders to the My Videos > Movies folder. (if there is no "Movies" Folder Create one within My Videos Folder.)
Open Media Center Tasks/Settings > Media Libraries > Movies > Add folders to the Library. Add the Movies Folder within the My Videos Folder to the Movie library.
Once you finish that go back to the main WMC Menu and open Movie Library and see if the movie is there.. if so try and play it.

Make sure when you move the Video_TS and Audio_TS folders that they are contained within another folder with the name of the movie and year of release.
For an Example: open the new Movies folder in my videos and right click and create a new folder name it Star Wars - A New Hope (1977) and place both the Video_TS and Audio_TS folders for Star Wars within that folder. (this is just an example it could be any movie.) Do this for each movie.
once that is done open Media Center and try and play it through the movie library, hopefully that makes it work correctly. if not post back.
newfiend~

[HTPC Specs:]

Also If there is no cover art or metadata for your movies in Movie Library you can add metadata to each folder once the file structure is complete by using Mikinho's Yammm http://mikinho.com/yammm/ or Media Center Master http://www.mediacentermaster.com/ these will download metadata for your movies as well as cover art and backdrops for your movie collection.

[HTPC Specs:]

I received & installed the HD6450 & used the driver on the enclosed disc, but it made no difference. Then I downloaded & installed the latest driver and that did the trick. Using 4-1-1-Info still shows the frame rate jump, but the picture does not.