Intel HD4000 & TrueHD

Having trouble playing all your different media types? Ask here!
ronvp

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#21

Post by ronvp » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:22 pm

I just noticed, your original post actually shows a Yamaha AVR (RX-A2010) and then later you show the HT-RC360, both of them not showing the DTS-HD and DD+..

Here is a procedure that may help:

1 - Make you use an actual HDMI port on your PC and not a adapter from say a mini-display port to HDMI. If you're mobo does not have a HDMI 1.4 port, you may not be able to stream the DTS-HD over HDMI and you should consider using a S/PDIF cable. it will stream those formats just fine..

2 - Check if on both your TV and your AMP the Audio Return Channel (ARC) features are switched off or if they are switched off, try it with them switched on. Specifically you may like to try switching of any features on your TV that say things like "Control your receiver from the TV, etc..)

3 - If that does not help, switch all these features back on and change the HDMI cable.. Use an HDMI 1.4a cable. These cables also support ARC.

If that does not fix it try this

4 - Completely uninstall any and all Audio and Display drivers/codec,etc.. By completely, I mean first run any uninstall programs that uninstall Codecs, Display and Audio drivers, including NVidia, Virtu, any other HD audio drivers (I see you have several), etc.. then go to windows device manager and select each Display and Audio device and uninstall the drivers from the system. Thus when windows ask if you like to remove the drivers say yes.
3 - Switch off you 're PC, AVR and TV, pull their power cords (seriously)
4 - Switch on youre TV, AVR and then you're PC
5 - When windows starts, let it install all the standard drivers
6 - Now re-install just the Intel display and Audio driver..Download them from Intel not from you're mobo provider.
7 - Now check you Intel Display Audio driver and see if you have the formats you are looking for

If that also fails, you may have try re-installing any and all Intel chipset drivers and if that fails, you should consider to do a complete re-install of Windows, if that also fails, you may have a faulty MOBO or CPU

Hope this helps..

bigsid05

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#22

Post by bigsid05 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:30 pm

The earlier picture with the Yamaha AVR was from a different poster.

The strange thing is that an older HTPC using an nVidia GT430 had DD+/TrueHD working fine, so I know it's not that the cables/AVR/TV setup doesn't support it.

I've tried uninstalling all of the drivers and starting from scratch. I'll try going even further than that as you suggested, and if it doesn't work out I may just install a video card in the end.

ronvp

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#23

Post by ronvp » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:53 pm

the NVidia uses different methods to determine if DTS-HD/DD+ is supported (in fact I do not even think they query the AVR to check what audio formats it supports.. I strongly recommend to try a HDMI 1.4a cable first.. Intel is very specific on this.. I had to do the same thing on my machine..

bigsid05

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#24

Post by bigsid05 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:03 pm

ronvp wrote:the NVidia uses different methods to determine if DTS-HD/DD+ is supported (in fact I do not even think they query the AVR to check what audio formats it supports.. I strongly recommend to try a HDMI 1.4a cable first.. Intel is very specific on this.. I had to do the same thing on my machine..
All video cards will check what the AVR supports via the EDID information (you can check this using a tool called Moninfo). My HTPC is seeing that the AVR supports TrueHD/DD+. I'll give the cables a try though since it's worth a shot.

Also, DD+/TrueHD will not work via SPDIF (only the core DTS track will work for DTS-MA audio).

richard1980

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#25

Post by richard1980 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:00 pm

And there's no such thing as an HDMI 1.4a cable. An HDMI cable is an HDMI cable, period. The only difference is standard vs high speed and ethernet vs non-ethernet.

Here's the link for the different cable types: http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

ronvp

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#26

Post by ronvp » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:49 pm

On the HDMIl cables: There is a 3rd type of cable ; Defective cable. Also, low speed cable versus high speed cable is many times indicated on the box by HDMI 1.1, 1.3 or 1.4. Also with the 1.4 (I think also 1.3) you get support for Ethernet over HDMI, ARC.. Thus to be sure somebody gets the right cable, it is perfectly ok to recommend a cable that specifies support for 1.4 on the box. It means high speed cable but also other features that most modern AVR/TV's require.

In the end, you may be forced to manually edit your EDID. Here is a link to a good thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid-override-thread

BTW, from the same site on HDMI 1.4: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/

And NOT all video cards actually check the Audio capabilities of the connected Display/AVR.

ronvp

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#27

Post by ronvp » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:16 pm

Not sure if this helps, but I just noticed this http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid- ... t_22729030.
It is all about people having issues on DTS-HD DD+ with a LG TV connected to a AVR. There is also a fix for it..

richard1980

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#28

Post by richard1980 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:47 pm

ronvp wrote:Also, low speed cable versus high speed cable is many times indicated on the box by HDMI 1.1, 1.3 or 1.4. Also with the 1.4 (I think also 1.3) you get support for Ethernet over HDMI, ARC.. Thus to be sure somebody gets the right cable, it is perfectly ok to recommend a cable that specifies support for 1.4 on the box. It means high speed cable but also other features that most modern AVR/TV's require.
That is 100% completely false. As I previously stated, there is not (nor has there ever been) any such thing as an HDMI 1.4a cable (or any other "version" of an HDMI cable). Manufacturers used to abuse the labeling by labeling their products with HDMI version numbers as a marketing scheme, and HDMI put a stop to it. Back in November 2010, they banned the use of HDMI version numbers on cables, and in January 2012 they banned the use of HDMI version numbers on all HDMI products (because again, manufacturers were abusing the labeling).

Additionally, there was never any correlation between an HDMI cable version number and the features of that cable, so you could never say a cable labeled as HDMI 1.4 was a high speed cable. An HDMI cable manufacturer could have just as easily labeled a low speed cable as an HDMI 1.4 cable. But that's irrelevant now because such labeling is prohibited.

So to put it simply, there's no such thing as an "HDMI version X" product. There never has been. The only time the HDMI version number comes into play is when the manufacturer is getting their product certified, at which time they must comply with the then-current HDMI specification, which is annotated with a version number.

bigsid05

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#29

Post by bigsid05 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:35 pm

ronvp wrote:Not sure if this helps, but I just noticed this http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid- ... t_22729030.
It is all about people having issues on DTS-HD DD+ with a LG TV connected to a AVR. There is also a fix for it..
I appreciate the help ronvp - but Tulli has posted in the past that EDID overrides don't work with the onboard HD4000 :(

barnabas1969

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#30

Post by barnabas1969 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:09 pm

Amen, Richard. And, it's important to note that just because a cable has not been certified to be high speed... does not necessarily mean that it won't work at 1080p and frame packed 3D. Many "standard" HDMI cables work fine with 1080p and frame packed 3D. Actually, just about any HDMI cable six feet (2m) in length or shorter will work fine with 1080p and 3D.

ronvp

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#31

Post by ronvp » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:17 pm

Using a standard cable (of any length) on 1.4 compliant hardware can/will produce bad results. Not all 1080p streams are created equal. i.e.: If all you do is playback ripped/compressed blurays (say h.264 video with compressed audio streams with Data rate less then 11k) then you may get away with standard cables. But if you actually play back the uncompressed MPEG high bit rate stream with lossless audio(thus not compressed) you find that using a standard cable for use with high speed material is just a bad advice and blatantly wrong. You may get away with it for some cables but in general, if you like to play back bluray ISO's or BluRays from a 1.4 spec BluRay player directly, you should get high speed cables.

barnabas1969

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#32

Post by barnabas1969 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:02 pm

ronvp wrote:Using a standard cable (of any length) on 1.4 compliant hardware can/will produce bad results. Not all 1080p streams are created equal. i.e.: If all you do is playback ripped/compressed blurays (say h.264 video with compressed audio streams with Data rate less then 11k) then you may get away with standard cables. But if you actually play back the uncompressed MPEG high bit rate stream with lossless audio(thus not compressed) you find that using a standard cable for use with high speed material is just a bad advice and blatantly wrong. You may get away with it for some cables but in general, if you like to play back bluray ISO's or BluRays from a 1.4 spec BluRay player directly, you should get high speed cables.
You are absolutely wrong. Ever tried it?

By the way, the encoding/compression of a video has absolutely nothing to do the bit rate that goes over the HDMI cable. The video is decoded/decompressed by the player. The resulting data that goes out over the HDMI cable has a bit rate that corresponds to the resolution, frame rate, color depth, and yes, the audio bit rate.

Playing a compressed H.264 video at 1080p60 results in the same amount of data going over the HDMI cable as a 1080p60 Bluray movie, assuming the same color depth and audio bit rate.

richard1980

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#33

Post by richard1980 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:04 pm

From http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx:
HDMI.org wrote:Q. What is the difference between a “Standard” HDMI cable and a “High-Speed” HDMI cable?

Recently, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.
  • Standard (or “category 1”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal.
  • High Speed (or “category 2”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates from the Source. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).
Note that those speeds are the minimum speeds at which the cable must perform. There's nothing restricting the cables from performing at higher speeds. Many standard HDMI cables are capable of speeds much higher than the required minimum. However, it would be necessary to check the specifications for a specific cable to know that cable's exact capabilities.

ronvp

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#34

Post by ronvp » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:10 am

barnabas1969 wrote:
ronvp wrote:Using a standard cable (of any length) on 1.4 compliant hardware can/will produce bad results. Not all 1080p streams are created equal. i.e.: If all you do is playback ripped/compressed blurays (say h.264 video with compressed audio streams with Data rate less then 11k) then you may get away with standard cables. But if you actually play back the uncompressed MPEG high bit rate stream with lossless audio(thus not compressed) you find that using a standard cable for use with high speed material is just a bad advice and blatantly wrong. You may get away with it for some cables but in general, if you like to play back bluray ISO's or BluRays from a 1.4 spec BluRay player directly, you should get high speed cables.
You are absolutely wrong. Ever tried it?

By the way, the encoding/compression of a video has absolutely nothing to do the bit rate that goes over the HDMI cable. The video is decoded/decompressed by the player. The resulting data that goes out over the HDMI cable has a bit rate that corresponds to the resolution, frame rate, color depth, and yes, the audio bit rate.

Playing a compressed H.264 video at 1080p60 results in the same amount of data going over the HDMI cable as a 1080p60 Bluray movie, assuming the same color depth and audio bit rate.
You have a good point on the compression, and yes I have tried it and it is a issue and I did have to upgrade my old HDMI cables. As to the data rate, I regularly use the "play to feature" of windows, so the decompression is done by my TV(s).. Also for those of us using MCE to watch HDTV, that signal comes in uncompressed MPEG (for now anyway) and goes straight to the TV. I will rest my case by saying that I stand my ground and it is wrong to recommend for people to use low speed cables for HD playback.. but if it works for you great!

barnabas1969

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#35

Post by barnabas1969 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:57 pm

ronvp wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:
ronvp wrote:Using a standard cable (of any length) on 1.4 compliant hardware can/will produce bad results. Not all 1080p streams are created equal. i.e.: If all you do is playback ripped/compressed blurays (say h.264 video with compressed audio streams with Data rate less then 11k) then you may get away with standard cables. But if you actually play back the uncompressed MPEG high bit rate stream with lossless audio(thus not compressed) you find that using a standard cable for use with high speed material is just a bad advice and blatantly wrong. You may get away with it for some cables but in general, if you like to play back bluray ISO's or BluRays from a 1.4 spec BluRay player directly, you should get high speed cables.
You are absolutely wrong. Ever tried it?

By the way, the encoding/compression of a video has absolutely nothing to do the bit rate that goes over the HDMI cable. The video is decoded/decompressed by the player. The resulting data that goes out over the HDMI cable has a bit rate that corresponds to the resolution, frame rate, color depth, and yes, the audio bit rate.

Playing a compressed H.264 video at 1080p60 results in the same amount of data going over the HDMI cable as a 1080p60 Bluray movie, assuming the same color depth and audio bit rate.
You have a good point on the compression, and yes I have tried it and it is a issue and I did have to upgrade my old HDMI cables. As to the data rate, I regularly use the "play to feature" of windows, so the decompression is done by my TV(s).. Also for those of us using MCE to watch HDTV, that signal comes in uncompressed MPEG (for now anyway) and goes straight to the TV. I will rest my case by saying that I stand my ground and it is wrong to recommend for people to use low speed cables for HD playback.. but if it works for you great!
I wasn't recommending it, just stating that most short HDMI cables work at high speed.

As for your comment about "Play To", I'm assuming that your TV has the ability to be a DLNA media renderer like mine does. If that's the case, then yes, your TV is decompressing the video when you use Play To. However, in this case, the video data is not being sent over the HDMI cable. It would be going over the Ethernet or WiFi network interface in the TV instead.

Regarding what you wrote about "uncompressed MPEG", I had to laugh at that one. MPEG-2 is a method of encoding video that results in a lossy compression of the source video. If you were to look at the uncompressed source for a 1-second-long 1080p60 video (1920x1080 @ 60fps) with a 24 bit color depth, the resulting 1-second recording would be more than 355 megabytes (((1920 * 1080 * 24 * 60) / 1024^2) / 8), or a bit-rate of 2.78 gigabits per second ((1920 * 1080 * 24 * 60) / 1024^3), not including audio. A 1-hour uncompressed recording at this bit-rate would be 1.22 terabytes (((1920 * 1080 * 24 * 60^3) / 1024^4) / 8), again not including audio.

A US broadcast/cable HD stream encoded in MPEG-2 is typically 15-20 megabits per second, including audio. Most US broadcasts are 1080i60, with a few in 720p60, or source video with bit rates of approx 1.39Gbps (1080i) and 1.24Gpbs (720p). That's a lot of compression from the original source.

Most Bluray movies are encoded in H.264 (MPEG-4), and some are encoded in MPEG-2. As you can see by the information I provided above, even Bluray movies are compressed, otherwise they would not fit on ~25-50GB Bluray disks. The amount of storage space on a Bluray disk allows for a higher bit rate, and therefore less loss of detail than a DVD, but it is still compressed.

ronvp

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#36

Post by ronvp » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:47 pm

You are correct, I am sending over the ethernet, my audio is going over the HDMI ARC channel (a HDMI 1.4 feature) back to my AVR. As to your math, it's based on 60 FPS and that for almost all bluray content is not correct. it is almost always 24 or 23.9(rounded). Still, your point is well made and files will be way to big. Thus for me using the term "uncompressed" MPEG video is wrong. It is all compressed. The point I was trying to make is that when you play a BluRay disk, the data stream going across the HDMI cable is in many cases (depending on the material being send) way to large and we should not recommend to use Low Speed cables for HD Video/Audio. From experience, it can produce very weird results, pixilation, frame dropping, etc..

barnabas1969

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#37

Post by barnabas1969 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:53 pm

You're correct. I forgot to calculate for 24fps. However, a 1080p24 video stream from a Bluray movie is the same bit rate, when going over the HDMI cable, as a 1080p24 video stream from any other source (assuming the same color depth) because the player hardware/software decodes and decompresses the video before being sent over the HDMI cable.

richard1980

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#38

Post by richard1980 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:42 am

ronvp wrote:As to your math, it's based on 60 FPS and that for almost all bluray content is not correct. it is almost always 24 or 23.9(rounded).
In that case, any standard HDMI cable will work. 1080p24 requires less throughput than 1080i60 (assuming the same color depth). It's only when you start talking about 1080p60 that the type of cable required even becomes a concern.

barnabas1969

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#39

Post by barnabas1969 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:27 pm

richard1980 wrote:
ronvp wrote:As to your math, it's based on 60 FPS and that for almost all bluray content is not correct. it is almost always 24 or 23.9(rounded).
In that case, any standard HDMI cable will work. 1080p24 requires less throughput than 1080i60 (assuming the same color depth). It's only when you start talking about 1080p60 that the type of cable required even becomes a concern.
I thought the same thing, Richard, but I decided to just drop the subject.

ronvp

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#40

Post by ronvp » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:19 pm

I am just flabbergasted that you guys are trying to prove that it is OK to use low speed cables for High Speed applications.

Here is some more math From: http://web.forret.com/tools/video_fps.a ... 2&depth=24.

It allows some more accurate calculations and adjustments of Color Model. With 1080P x 24 FPS x 24 bit color depth with YUV 4.2.2 Color model. The Uncompressed bitrate = 2,39 Gbps = 298,60 MB/s. This exceeds the rating of a Standard low speed cable not by far but it does. Can some cables get there? Sure, but some will not.. and as soon as you go to 30 FPS (2.99 GPS) or 60 FPS (5.97 GPS) all bets are off. Overlay this with higher color depths models such as YUV 4.4.4 and it will get even worse.

Thus saying that Standards cables are ok for high speed applications is just not OK. It can cause problems with frame dropping, pixilation, sound skipping, etc.. and for anybody that is intending to watch 1080P video with Uncompressed Audio (as in a regular BluRay with DTS-HD), the correct advice is to use a High Speed Cable or risk poor picture/sound quality.

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