U.S. House votes to kill CableCARD mandate!

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Scallica

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#21

Post by Scallica » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:14 pm

blueiedgod wrote: Do you know how Verizon FiOS Quantum DVR gets 12 channels? Are they using CableCARD, or just "streaming" over their network?
It doesn't. Each Arris VMS 1100 box has six tuners inside. To reach 12 tuners, you need a second VMS 1100 box. The Arris IPC1100s are the satellite extender clients which automatically connect to the first available VMS box.

The VMS 1100 boxes have a CableCard slot in the back, but I'm not sure if there is a card inside.
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#22

Post by erkotz » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:26 pm

blueiedgod wrote:
Do you know how Verizon FiOS Quantum DVR gets 12 channels? Are they using CableCARD, or just "streaming" over their network?

We have a 12 tuner DVR, but only 6 of them are Cable, the other 6 are OTA.
That is an excellent question, and I'm not certain. My guess is it takes 2 CableCARDs. I just reached out to a contact at FiOS.
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#23

Post by Skybolt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:15 am

barnabas1969 wrote:If the Senate passes this (which is less likely than its passage in the House), and the President signs it into law, then (for the short-term) it only means that the cable companies can build/buy/distribute cable boxes with the CableCARD hardware integrated into the box.
My cable box never had a Cable Card in the slot, and I have there gold package. They only charge me $2/month for each card. I have two primes, and the cable co only tried to tell me I would be missing out on the on demand stuff. Which is why I still have two cable boxes as well as the cards. You can see right into the box and there is clearly no card anywhere, only the support for it (Slot). It's a Samsung SMT 5320, and have had them for the past four years.

Your post is confusing?
While the "gateway" accomplishes the goal of removing the STB from your living room (if you have a compatible smart TV), it still forces you to rent an overpriced box from the cable company forever.


I really hope we don't lose the ability to have an HTPC stream IPTV like we can now, going back to IR and STB's would kill me.

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#24

Post by barnabas1969 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:28 am

Skybolt wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:If the Senate passes this (which is less likely than its passage in the House), and the President signs it into law, then (for the short-term) it only means that the cable companies can build/buy/distribute cable boxes with the CableCARD hardware integrated into the box.
My cable box never had a Cable Card in the slot, and I have there gold package. They only charge me $2/month for each card. I have two primes, and the cable co only tried to tell me I would be missing out on the on demand stuff. Which is why I still have two cable boxes as well as the cards. You can see right into the box and there is clearly no card anywhere, only the support for it (Slot). It's a Samsung SMT 5320, and have had them for the past four years.

Your post is confusing?
If you have a box that can receive your provider's encrypted programming without a CableCARD, then it seems that your provider is violating the integration ban (unless the ban excludes your provider?). The "encrypted" part of my last sentence is important. If they don't encrypt the channel, then the CableCARD is not needed.
Skybolt wrote:
While the "gateway" accomplishes the goal of removing the STB from your living room (if you have a compatible smart TV), it still forces you to rent an overpriced box from the cable company forever.


I really hope we don't lose the ability to have an HTPC stream IPTV like we can now, going back to IR and STB's would kill me.
Media Center does not "stream IPTV", unless you consider the discontinued "Internet TV" or "Netflix" add-ins to be "IPTV". The "gateway" devices which are currently being pushed by the cable companies are simply a multi-tuner DVR which can be accessed by smart TV's, smartphones, tablets, and other devices on the LAN. All recordings are contained within the "gateway" device. It has its own hard drive, and you probably can't make that drive larger except by using some "approved" external device (which has proven difficult and unreliable with other cable-company-supplied DVR's). It has its own recording schedule. All of the devices in your home are simply clients of the "gateway". The protocol for connecting to the "gateway" is dictated by your cable company. If your device cannot connect using their "approved" protocol, then you cannot use that device.

The "gateway" device is a misnomer. It only provides a "gateway" to the cable company's jail-cell of content. You won't be able to break out of their contract (which means you're going to pay them every month for the "privilege" of having their equipment in your house), their limit on the number of tuners, their limit on the amount of recordings you can store, their limit on the types and sizes of external hard drive you can connect, etc, etc, etc.

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#25

Post by Skybolt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:35 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:If you have a box that can receive your provider's encrypted programming without a CableCARD, then it seems that your provider is violating the integration ban (unless the ban excludes your provider?). The "encrypted" part of my last sentence is important. If they don't encrypt the channel, then the CableCARD is not needed.


That is exactly what I thought, but My STB's are as described. Very Confusing. All channels are Encrypted even locals that are HD.
Media Center does not "stream IPTV", unless you consider the discontinued "Internet TV" or "Netflix" add-ins to be "IPTV". The "gateway" devices which are currently being pushed by the cable companies are simply a multi-tuner DVR which can be accessed by smart TV's, smartphones, tablets, and other devices on the LAN. All recordings are contained within the "gateway" device. It has its own hard drive, and you probably can't make that drive larger except by using some "approved" external device (which has proven difficult and unreliable with other cable-company-supplied DVR's). It has its own recording schedule. All of the devices in your home are simply clients of the "gateway". The protocol for connecting to the "gateway" is dictated by your cable company. If your device cannot connect using their "approved" protocol, then you cannot use that device.

The "gateway" device is a misnomer. It only provides a "gateway" to the cable company's jail-cell of content. You won't be able to break out of their contract (which means you're going to pay them every month for the "privilege" of having their equipment in your house), their limit on the number of tuners, their limit on the amount of recordings you can store, their limit on the types and sizes of external hard drive you can connect, etc, etc, etc.
Ok, my bad. In general I consider all IP devices, like the prime, to be streaming. I realize MCE connects to it then get authorized to "watch" a channel, but that's not much different then being authorized to view ripped content on an encrypted link. Yes the "authorization" is quite different and much more is involved like Play-On and such, but the end result is basically the same.

so you were describing a cable co's DVR right? and not 7mc?

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#26

Post by STC » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:09 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:If you have a box that can receive your provider's encrypted programming without a CableCARD, then it seems that your provider is violating the integration ban


Plenty of non CC STBs here. No ban in Canada.

The channel changing on the Pace and Motorola STBs I've played with are instant. No small delay imposed by the CC's on STBs with them fitted. A much nicer experience for live TV for those without MC.
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#27

Post by blueiedgod » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:10 pm

Skybolt wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:If the Senate passes this (which is less likely than its passage in the House), and the President signs it into law, then (for the short-term) it only means that the cable companies can build/buy/distribute cable boxes with the CableCARD hardware integrated into the box.
My cable box never had a Cable Card in the slot, and I have there gold package. They only charge me $2/month for each card. I have two primes, and the cable co only tried to tell me I would be missing out on the on demand stuff. Which is why I still have two cable boxes as well as the cards. You can see right into the box and there is clearly no card anywhere, only the support for it (Slot). It's a Samsung SMT 5320, and have had them for the past four years.

Your post is confusing?
While the "gateway" accomplishes the goal of removing the STB from your living room (if you have a compatible smart TV), it still forces you to rent an overpriced box from the cable company forever.


I really hope we don't lose the ability to have an HTPC stream IPTV like we can now, going back to IR and STB's would kill me.
Look on the back of your samsung box, there is an area to the right of the coax input, that's where cableCARD is. It is usually protected by metal cover to prevent end user from removing it.

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#28

Post by blueiedgod » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:17 pm

erkotz wrote:
blueiedgod wrote:
Do you know how Verizon FiOS Quantum DVR gets 12 channels? Are they using CableCARD, or just "streaming" over their network?

We have a 12 tuner DVR, but only 6 of them are Cable, the other 6 are OTA.
That is an excellent question, and I'm not certain. My guess is it takes 2 CableCARDs. I just reached out to a contact at FiOS.

Found the answers:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/veri ... -hands-on/
The VMS1100 media server features six tuners and a 1TB hard drive. You can connect up to five Motorola Medios+ IPC1100 IP-based set-top boxes to it to expand your DVR's reach to six TVs. Not enough for you? Well, you can actually setup two Media Servers in your house and then scale the system up to 12 TVs.
http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/01/veri ... uantum-tv/
The cost for the system right now is $22 per month for one of the DVR boxes, and $32 for the two DVR, 12-tuner setup, plus $10 to connect additional TVs.
While its current capabilities are impressive, what's more exciting is the "phase 2" Verizon has shown with transcoding that makes video available on network connected hardware like an Xbox, Roku or iPad. Combined with Verizon's purchase of Intel's OnCue IPTV project and the prospect of the FCC's AllVid standard, it could take us one more step towards a future where the TV experience, including recordings, is available on every screen inside and outside the house and doesn't need special boxes at all.
So, it looks like the same limitations of WMC are imposed on the FiOS Quantum hardware (6 tuners per CableCARD and 5 extenders)

The specs look amazingly similar to the Ceton Q. :-)

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#29

Post by barnabas1969 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:24 pm

Skybolt wrote:so you were describing a cable co's DVR right? and not 7mc?
I'm talking about the new "gateway" devices that the cable companies are planning to push on consumers. They are telling the FCC that they are going to deliver TV over TCP/IP (eliminating the need for CableCARD)... but what they are really doing is installing a "gateway" device in your house. The "gateway" is simply a DVR that outputs video/audio streams over TCP/IP to other devices. They will still be delivering the TV content over the coax to your house using QAM channels just like they are today. I think it's all a scam to force us to rent their boxes while telling us that we will be able to use our own devices to watch their content.

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#30

Post by barnabas1969 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:26 pm

blueiedgod wrote:The cost for the system right now is $22 per month for one of the DVR boxes, and $32 for the two DVR, 12-tuner setup, plus $10 to connect additional TVs.
Yeah, plus $10 for each TV. So, if you want 12 tuners and 5 TV's, that's $82/month for device rental fees. I'm not going to pay that.

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#31

Post by Skybolt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:32 pm

blueiedgod wrote:Look on the back of your samsung box, there is an area to the right of the coax input, that's where cableCARD is. It is usually protected by metal cover to prevent end user from removing it.
Exactly, and there are also 100's vent holes where you can clearly see, there is not a card inserted.

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#32

Post by Skybolt » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:39 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:I'm talking about the new "gateway" devices that the cable companies are planning to push on consumers. They are telling the FCC that they are going to deliver TV over TCP/IP (eliminating the need for CableCARD)... but what they are really doing is installing a "gateway" device in your house. The "gateway" is simply a DVR that outputs video/audio streams over TCP/IP to other devices. They will still be delivering the TV content over the coax to your house using QAM channels just like they are today. I think it's all a scam to force us to rent their boxes while telling us that we will be able to use our own devices to watch their content.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that coming about, thanks for describing it. Man I hope your wrong on this one, although it's not likely is it. That would put them right back in the bird dog seat again.

I just hope CC will be around long enough for the next big thing to come to market. So far it's scary how backwards things have gotten where this is concerned.

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#33

Post by werds » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:12 pm

Skybolt wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:I'm talking about the new "gateway" devices that the cable companies are planning to push on consumers. They are telling the FCC that they are going to deliver TV over TCP/IP (eliminating the need for CableCARD)... but what they are really doing is installing a "gateway" device in your house. The "gateway" is simply a DVR that outputs video/audio streams over TCP/IP to other devices. They will still be delivering the TV content over the coax to your house using QAM channels just like they are today. I think it's all a scam to force us to rent their boxes while telling us that we will be able to use our own devices to watch their content.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that coming about, thanks for describing it. Man I hope your wrong on this one, although it's not likely is it. That would put them right back in the bird dog seat again.

I just hope CC will be around long enough for the next big thing to come to market. So far it's scary how backwards things have gotten where this is concerned.
Yep, this is my biggest concern, that they will again use this as an opportunity (they as in the cable providers) to state how the 3rd party solution or open solution is unworkable, provide piss poor support for it, then pull up statistics of how it is a boondoggle because of poor customer demand or uptake of the solution. State that they are better off with their first party offerings. Increase the rental fees on those offerings incrementally because it is new technology and then bleed people dry...

I say this because this is what they have done in the past and everytime I have a conversation with a customer account rep regarding my account they always try to shovel how I would get cost savings by using their "promotional bundles" until I point out the added fees the equipment adds and how with my current equipment I save greater than $80 a month in lease fees (probably more if I counted the amount of tuners I have available vs what they had available until only recently with Comcast)

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#34

Post by barnabas1969 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:26 pm

werds wrote:I say this because this is what they have done in the past and everytime I have a conversation with a customer account rep regarding my account they always try to shovel how I would get cost savings by using their "promotional bundles" until I point out the added fees the equipment adds and how with my current equipment I save greater than $80 a month in lease fees (probably more if I counted the amount of tuners I have available vs what they had available until only recently with Comcast)
Yeah, I get what you mean. When I transferred my service to my new place last week, the guy on the phone was astonished that I didn't have any of their cable boxes. He was certain that he could save me money if he added some boxes and put me on a bundle of some kind. Nope.

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#35

Post by KingSnake » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:34 pm

erkotz wrote:I don't really see this as a big deal. The goal of the separable security mandate was to get better retail CableCARD support - but what happened was that manufacturers added proprietary "hooks" on their STBs/CableCARDs and handed things like pairing differently anyway - completely defeating the point.

As far as I can tell, this does not impact the requirement of operators to support CableCARDs - just the requirement to have a CableCARD in an STB.

The one place where this may get a hair interesting is CableCARDs are required to support as many streams as the operator's highest-featured STB. We are approaching the technical limitations of the CableCARD bus (200Mbit/sec - roughly enough for 10 HD streams) with current boxes which support 8 simultaneous channels. It will be a bit interesting to see how this is approached - I always though it would become a non-issue with downloadable security replacing CableCARD in the near future - we will see if that's the route taken here.


I am currently using the Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe and have had many conversations with Charter Techs about this current subject. They say that Charter is chomping at the bit for the opportunity to discontinue support of the cards. If they become no longer required to provide them as they are now, there will be a rapid decline in their functioning properly. Let a pairing corrupt, who's going to fix it?

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#36

Post by KingSnake » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:48 pm

I don't want to RENT any equipment! I want to be able to select what works for me, place it where I want and wire it the way I want and OWN IT!
I only want to pay the CC their exorbitant fee each month and enjoy ALL of my media the way I want

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#37

Post by slowbiscuit » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:15 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:
Skybolt wrote:so you were describing a cable co's DVR right? and not 7mc?
I'm talking about the new "gateway" devices that the cable companies are planning to push on consumers. They are telling the FCC that they are going to deliver TV over TCP/IP (eliminating the need for CableCARD)... but what they are really doing is installing a "gateway" device in your house. The "gateway" is simply a DVR that outputs video/audio streams over TCP/IP to other devices. They will still be delivering the TV content over the coax to your house using QAM channels just like they are today. I think it's all a scam to force us to rent their boxes while telling us that we will be able to use our own devices to watch their content.
Sounds like AllVid without the standards that were supposed to come with it (and the universal provider access including sat and U-Verse, which in a fantasy world meant your DVR would work with any service, all you'd need is the provider's AllVid gateway).

This was still a rental model of course and inferior to just accessing the content directly via IP, but for sat in particular it wasn't a bad idea. Not that it matters since the FCC rolled over and played dead when cable told them to eat shit and die.

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#38

Post by barnabas1969 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:31 pm

slowbiscuit wrote:Sounds like AllVid without the standards that were supposed to come with it (and the universal provider access including sat and U-Verse, which in a fantasy world meant your DVR would work with any service, all you'd need is the provider's AllVid gateway).
Yeah, it's similar, except that this version contains the DVR inside the "gateway" so you're stuck with the tiny hard drive and crappy UI that they provide.

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#39

Post by koberhol » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:48 pm

KingSnake wrote:I don't want to RENT any equipment! I want to be able to select what works for me, place it where I want and wire it the way I want and OWN IT!
I only want to pay the CC their exorbitant fee each month and enjoy ALL of my media the way I want
+1 ... Even before WMC and Cablecard I ALWAYS provided/owned my modem as I was not willing to pay $7 per month FOREVER!!!!

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#40

Post by STC » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:02 pm

If/when the time comes that they can squeeze you that much forcing rental of an STB at inflated pricing, then it would be time to cut the TV cord. Live off IP streaming content and be done with traditional cable TV.
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