How much time is left for WMC?

Chat with other TGB members about whatever is on your mind.
adam1991

Posts: 2893
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:31 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#21

Post by adam1991 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:53 pm

I won't disagree, but you can't ignore the facts as you evaluate the effort required to keep it alive vs the expected outcome, including how long the effort will last.

Ask an ER doctor about the decision process.

What you don't want is to wake up one day and realize you're screwed and don't have a plan in place. At some point people decide to stop spending energy and effort on planning for the next certain to happen yet unknown situation, and move on.

As for "WMC will never die as long as it gets guide data," I believe that to be as wrong as can be.

User avatar
Doctor Feelgood

Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:37 pm
Location: NJ

HTPC Specs: Show details

#22

Post by Doctor Feelgood » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:25 pm

While I won't argue for or against WMC - I have it installed, and overall I am still very happy with it. The wife and kids somehow didn't even notice things get funky earlier this week - and that is key to its survival in my house. One day it may be completely dead, or it might actually be too much trouble for me to maintain, and at that time I will act. So what - maybe we will be without cable TV for a couple days before starting on something new - but it shouldn't be a big deal.

Space

Posts: 2838
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:44 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#23

Post by Space » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:28 pm

captain_video wrote:Nothing is dead if you can keep it alive. The fact that Microsoft will eventually stop providing guide data is a foregone conclusion. My point about Rovi and the X-Box was that Microsoft is already providing guide data so it's just a matter of getting it out to WMC users. I assumed it was an automated process that doesn't know how to deal with the DST changes. I intend to look into EPG123 and get away from Rovi entirely. From that perspective, WMC will never die as long as it gets fed guide data.
Exactly, one problem is that from time to time, the Rovi feed that Microsoft uses to create the WMC feed will change format slightly and will break the WMC feed, so it requires someone to fix it.

This bi-annual problem does appear to be related to DST and it is unknown if it requires intervention to fix or if it just fixes itself after the time change is over. It could be that someone has to do something to fix it each time it happens, but they don't have the resources to fix it permanently (or at least have made it a low enough priority so that it will never get fixed).

I would rather that it require someone to fix it, because if they think it will fix itself every time it happens, and then one time it does not, then they only have 2-3 days left to work on fixing it, and if that happens we will almost certainly be without listings for some time.

Even with the way it is now, we still have listings, but they are bad listings, since they are around 9 days old and not properly updated with the latest changes. I missed recording the first 3 episodes of the first season of "TURN: Washington's spies" that aired last Sunday because they were not yet in the WMC guide when it was downloaded the previous Monday, and then the guide was not updated for 9 days. I was only looking for NEW episodes manually on zap2it so as to not miss something, but didn't realize that these shows that I've been hoping to record (since I missed them the first time around) were being rebroadcast (and missed them because they are repeats).

User avatar
rmeden

Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:39 pm
Location: Schedules Direct

HTPC Specs: Show details

#24

Post by rmeden » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:11 pm

Sammy2 wrote:All that said, I was reading through the Conditions of Use for Schedules Direct and it says that it is for non-commercial personal use. How does that work when it is used as a replacement guide for WMC? Is is it still considered personal use because it is an optional thing personally chosen by the end user and not used directly by Microsoft?
Gracenote has granted an exception to the commercial use rule allowing SD to provide data to WMC (they have done so in the past for effectively dead commercial products). Gary has agreed to keep EPG123 free. So, as far as SD is concerned, we welcome EPG123 + WMC.

Robert Eden
Schedules Direct.

User avatar
rmeden

Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:39 pm
Location: Schedules Direct

HTPC Specs: Show details

#25

Post by rmeden » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:18 pm

adam1991 wrote: And some diehards are still using ReplayTV, despite its level death.
The ReplayTV situation is a good sign for MCE.... The company has totally gone out of business and shut everything down and yet the community is able to keep the boxes fully functional and activate new units. (Years ago, DNNA provided the security key to allow this).

It would be great if M$ would provide the community some information on how the back-end works, but as long as they don't actively disable the system with an update, EPG123+SD should be able to keep the boxes alive.

Sadly, the writing is on the wall for my Vista Media Center system though. :(

Ed 

Posts: 808
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#26

Post by Ed  » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:25 pm

rmeden wrote:Gracenote has granted an exception to the commercial use rule allowing SD to provide data to WMC (they have done so in the past for effectively dead commercial products). Gary has agreed to keep EPG123 free. So, as far as SD is concerned, we welcome EPG123 + WMC.

Robert Eden
Schedules Direct.
There you go :D

While it might still be 'alive and kicking' in one's house - it is overall a dead product. Let the debate on that topic rest (yeah right lol).

3rob3

Posts: 548
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#27

Post by 3rob3 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:17 pm

If you don't have to deal with DRM channels, I strongly suggest relegating your WMC system to "server" only duties with the help of ServerWMC. I did a few months ago, using Android TV devices for viewing, and would never go back. If WMC ever fully goes belly-up it is trivial to switch to another backend. Whenever I get some time I plan to upgrade my Win7 WMC PC to Win10 and will just use NextPVR as the backend.

Just another suggestion!

User avatar
rmeden

Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:39 pm
Location: Schedules Direct

HTPC Specs: Show details

#28

Post by rmeden » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:35 am

Ed  wrote:While it might still be 'alive and kicking' in one's house - it is overall a dead product. Let the debate on that topic rest (yeah right lol).
A dead product is one that is no longer being sold. It doesn't relate to functionality.

For example, ReplayTV is a dead product, but it still works as well as it did on day 1 using WiRNS or LaHo. There won't be new sales or new features, but it works.

Robert

Ed 

Posts: 808
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#29

Post by Ed  » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:55 am

rmeden wrote:
Ed  wrote:While it might still be 'alive and kicking' in one's house - it is overall a dead product. Let the debate on that topic rest (yeah right lol).
A dead product is one that is no longer being sold. It doesn't relate to functionality.

For example, ReplayTV is a dead product, but it still works as well as it did on day 1 using WiRNS or LaHo. There won't be new sales or new features, but it works.

Robert
I agree - and WMC isn't sold anymore either. But there are those who want to say it isn't dead still . :D

adam1991

Posts: 2893
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:31 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#30

Post by adam1991 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:11 am

rmeden wrote:
Ed  wrote:While it might still be 'alive and kicking' in one's house - it is overall a dead product. Let the debate on that topic rest (yeah right lol).
A dead product is one that is no longer being sold. It doesn't relate to functionality.

For example, ReplayTV is a dead product, but it still works as well as it did on day 1 using WiRNS or LaHo. There won't be new sales or new features, but it works.

Robert
Ah, but on day 1 it didn't require WiRNS or LaHo. On day 1 lifetime units didn't require the user to pay $25/year for guide service. So it doesn't work as well as it did on day 1.

Replacement hard drives started becoming much harder to come by quite awhile ago. Power supplies are harder to obtain and/or repair. And getting composite video to insert into the Replay is becoming rarer and more difficult every day. Etc, etc. All the major systems are failing and/or becoming obsolete; everyone knows that it's simply a matter of when they will fail and not be repairable.

A dead product is one that, while it is working today, you know and expect it will not be working for you in the future. If you want the functionality, you must either plan for succession, or stick your head in the sand and deal with the situation in an UNplanned manner when reality hits and the product is, in fact, not functional and cannot be made functional.

There are plenty of us who, with regard to the technology in our lives, would rather plan for the known future instead of sticking our heads in the sand and expect that life will forever continue exactly as it is today.

Do you blunder on with something like ReplayTV, for example, and have absolutely no plan for what you'll do when the system you have dies and you have no direct replacement ready for it?

It might be a fun hobby to try to resurrect an old Xerox Star system (or even an Alto, if you're really dedicated). If you can scrounge the parts (which means finding hangar queens as donors, because those parts are not available otherwise in modern society) you can no doubt make one work "as well as it did on day 1". But to what end?

Plenty of us would rather surf off the wave while it's high, onto the next wave, instead of picking ourselves up off the beach after the wave crashes us into it.

User avatar
Crash2009

Posts: 4357
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

HTPC Specs: Show details

#31

Post by Crash2009 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:14 am

Yeah, its sort of like "Chasing the Market Down". Yes you will own all the houses, but they are not worth anything. Its best to sell off and dive into something else "On the way Up"

I realize my efforts working with WMC in Win10 are likely a waste of time. Even though its working, there isn't much interest. Same with extenders in Win10, everybody whines about it, but it seems they don't want to put in any effort. I figured there should be 100 xbox360's running in Win10 by now, but No, there are only the first 2 guys that were willing to put in the effort.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#32

Post by STC » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:05 pm

^ I think the majority of WMC users have it running on a dedicated HTPC for TV use. That negates the need for running the latest OS. It doesn't matter.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

bob_p

Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:47 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#33

Post by bob_p » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:07 pm

With EPG123, it's likely that WMC can continue running after Microsoft's program guide service stops working.

What about the Xbox 360 extenders? Microsoft is also ramping down support for Xbox 360. Like new WMC licenses, will we hit a time when the extender software can't be added to an Xbox? And will something happen to make existing extenders stop working?

When we purchased several WMC upgrades for Windows 8.x - we paid Microsoft money - just for WMC (which is different from the relatively small percentage of Windows 7 users that turned on WMC, built into W7). Shouldn't Microsoft provide to customers paying for WMC what their plan is for providing support? At what point will they end-of-life Windows 8.x WMC?

User avatar
Crash2009

Posts: 4357
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

HTPC Specs: Show details

#34

Post by Crash2009 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:27 pm

STC wrote:^ I think the majority of WMC users have it running on a dedicated HTPC for TV use. That negates the need for running the latest OS. It doesn't matter.
True... at the moment. But wouldn't you agree that WMC has been attacked from the past (XP ???) (Vista ???), and now is being attacked from the future (Removed in Win10). I am not 100% convinced that Win7 has the strength to fight off the attack. It appears to me that Win7 is surrounded, and loosing ground daily. The final nail in the coffin will be elimination the of the CableCard. When it gets to that point, it wont matter which OS you have, WMC's usefulness will be eliminated as well.

User avatar
Crash2009

Posts: 4357
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

HTPC Specs: Show details

#35

Post by Crash2009 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:39 pm

bob_p wrote:What about the Xbox 360 extenders? Microsoft is also ramping down support for Xbox 360. Like new WMC licenses, will we hit a time when the extender software can't be added to an Xbox? And will something happen to make existing extenders stop working?
I don't have a 360 ATM, but wouldn't it be as simple as deny the 360 from connecting to live?

Ed 

Posts: 808
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:14 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#36

Post by Ed  » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:04 pm

Crash2009 wrote:
STC wrote:^ I think the majority of WMC users have it running on a dedicated HTPC for TV use. That negates the need for running the latest OS. It doesn't matter.
True... at the moment. But wouldn't you agree that WMC has been attacked from the past (XP ???) (Vista ???), and now is being attacked from the future (Removed in Win10). I am not 100% convinced that Win7 has the strength to fight off the attack. It appears to me that Win7 is surrounded, and loosing ground daily. The final nail in the coffin will be elimination the of the CableCard. When it gets to that point, it wont matter which OS you have, WMC's usefulness will be eliminated as well.
That's the nature of technological progress though - things move on - older ways/things become outdated/obsolete.
Crash2009 wrote:
bob_p wrote:What about the Xbox 360 extenders? Microsoft is also ramping down support for Xbox 360. Like new WMC licenses, will we hit a time when the extender software can't be added to an Xbox? And will something happen to make existing extenders stop working?
I don't have a 360 ATM, but wouldn't it be as simple as deny the 360 from connecting to live?
No, the 360 does not rely on Live in any way for its extender functionality and can be used without ever connecting or having an account for Live. They would need to remove the extender app/functionality from the OS and issue that new OS update to kill of the extender functionality.
Last edited by Ed  on Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dkrom

Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:39 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#37

Post by dkrom » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:09 pm

Crash2009 wrote:
STC wrote:^ I think the majority of WMC users have it running on a dedicated HTPC for TV use. That negates the need for running the latest OS. It doesn't matter.
True... at the moment. But wouldn't you agree that WMC has been attacked from the past (XP ???) (Vista ???), and now is being attacked from the future (Removed in Win10). I am not 100% convinced that Win7 has the strength to fight off the attack. It appears to me that Win7 is surrounded, and loosing ground daily. The final nail in the coffin will be elimination the of the CableCard. When it gets to that point, it wont matter which OS you have, WMC's usefulness will be eliminated as well.
Not quite - I have OTA and Dish Network. Should work until the guide goes away and then hopefully EPG123 will keep me going for a long long time. I'm using DMA2200 extenders which should always work as well so I don't see it going away for me and others who don't use cablecards anytime soon.

User avatar
Crash2009

Posts: 4357
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 12:38 am
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

HTPC Specs: Show details

#38

Post by Crash2009 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Over on the 10 front, a few of the changes to Win10 have been found, and reversed.

1) Graznok figured out that ehshell.dll and Microsoft.MediaCenter.UI.dll had some of the Hex keys changed to prevent RDP from working. During that process, viewing of video/within WMC/within a Remote Desktop Connection started working.

2) Meluvalli figured out that Mcx2Prov and NtRights (.exe I think) needed to be replaced with an older version. This change has allowed the setup and connection of the extender to the MCX account. Xbox360 actually works now. Ceton Echo lights up with a splash screen to go get MMC. MMC is able to activate a tuner, but the stream is blocked (somehow) from getting to the extender.

3) Abbodi has assisted by providing an injection process, to update all hard linked versions of the files mentioned in 1 and 2.

EDIT...Dma2200 also connects now, but is likely in the same situation as Ceton Echo.

EDIT...I agree. I should have said "Usefulness to me"

Space

Posts: 2838
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:44 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#39

Post by Space » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:38 pm

Crash2009 wrote:...
The final nail in the coffin will be elimination the of the CableCard. When it gets to that point, it wont matter which OS you have, WMC's usefulness will be eliminated as well.
CableCard is being REPLACED, not eliminated. No one knows what that replacement will be yet, but it will most likely be software based and not require renting anything from your cable company. Although I am sure that won't stop them from charging you an extra monthly fee.

User avatar
STC

Posts: 6808
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Location:

HTPC Specs: Show details

#40

Post by STC » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:51 pm

There are many cable STBs with cableCARDs in them. It's not going away any time soon.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

Post Reply