FCC DSTAC for a Downloadable Security schemes

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FCC DSTAC for a Downloadable Security schemes

#1

Post by jeff_rigby » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:45 pm

The two proposals by the FCC DSTAC for a Downloadable Security scheme are (Sony's passage will likely be used with both):

1) HTML5 <video> EME MSE (Used with TV Tuners then later direct IPTV from a cable modems) from the browser or an APP. An APP may be required for special features not supported by the browser. The example given was gesture control but Gesture and Voice control are or will be part of some browsers. Page 11 here: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001043533
2) Vidipath (Used with Cable TV Gateways, first DVRs and then direct from a cable modem with DLNA) PDF on Sony's passage has the center and lower path page 12 with a Cable TV downloadable security scheme using Vidipath. http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001092273

It's discussed here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1083116

Cable modem with DLNA I've had one for 6 months.

Image

mike_ekim's #1 cite above has Comcast Vidipath working toward a DSS.

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#2

Post by glugglug » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:37 pm

jeff_rigby wrote:The two proposals by the FCC DSTAC for a Downloadable Security scheme are (Sony's passage will likely be used with both):

1) HTML5 <video> EME MSE (Used with TV Tuners then later direct IPTV from a cable modems) from the browser or an APP. An APP may be required for special features not supported by the browser. The example given was gesture control but Gesture and Voice control are or will be part of some browsers. Page 11 here: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001043533
2) Vidipath (Used with Cable TV Gateways, first DVRs and then direct from a cable modem with DLNA) PDF on Sony's passage has the center and lower path page 12 with a Cable TV downloadable security scheme using Vidipath. http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001092273

It's discussed here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1083116
Wow, this is not at all what I thought!

Looking through the Passage doc, it seems they only need to encrypt a small portion of the stream. I had thought the encryption would require way too much bandwidth for switching to IP transport, but it looks like this will be more closer to 200kbps per HD stream of encrypted "critical packets", which means even supporting a dozen simultaneous streams is not a problem. Have they speced out how a channel map/tuning adapter equivalent will work? I'm guessing similar to current tuning adapters, but without a need for the physical adapter?

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#3

Post by jeff_rigby » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:23 pm

glugglug wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:The two proposals by the FCC DSTAC for a Downloadable Security scheme are (Sony's passage will likely be used with both):

1) HTML5 <video> EME MSE (Used with TV Tuners then later direct IPTV from a cable modems) from the browser or an APP. An APP may be required for special features not supported by the browser. The example given was gesture control but Gesture and Voice control are or will be part of some browsers. Page 11 here: http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001043533
2) Vidipath (Used with Cable TV Gateways, first DVRs and then direct from a cable modem with DLNA) PDF on Sony's passage has the center and lower path page 12 with a Cable TV downloadable security scheme using Vidipath. http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001092273

It's discussed here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1083116
Wow, this is not at all what I thought!

Looking through the Passage doc, it seems they only need to encrypt a small portion of the stream. I had thought the encryption would require way too much bandwidth for switching to IP transport, but it looks like this will be more closer to 200kbps per HD stream of encrypted "critical packets", which means even supporting a dozen simultaneous streams is not a problem. Have they speced out how a channel map/tuning adapter equivalent will work? I'm guessing similar to current tuning adapters, but without a need for the physical adapter?
I think, if I understand your question and understand how this works so don't count on my being accurate, no change is needed. Cable follows standards very similar to ATSC 2.0 as the Antenna TV channels are supposed to be passed through unchanged to cable except for headers that can remap the channel numbers for Cable's channel lineup. This is again an issue with Cable as they strip apart the IP streams from Antenna TV and offer them separately on different channels. Some of this is for efficiency but the included NRT, e-program and XTV information is stripped out too and Antenna TV is looking to those as additional revenue streams (XTV and NRT can be for commercials).

Of more interest is a Vidipath platform is part of an ecosystem to share media in the home and the hardware and software stack is the same for Antenna TV or Cable TV thus a DVR feature for Antenna TV with ATSC 2.0 (the 1080P support mentioned by Microsoft for the Antenna TV ATSC 2.0) can be used for Cable TV when the FCC DSTAC recommendation is implemented in 2016.

The battle for CE manufacturers and Cable TV is over the User Interface...the two proposals are HTML5 and Vidipath. With Vidipath the UI is owned by the Cable company as it's direct through a cable gateway. Consider the case of Google TV's YouTube..they change or are changing the way Youtube can be accessed requiring their UI/search engine so that their commercials must be shown. Sony has multiple patents for consolidating a UI that includes the local DLNA servers, their Playstation Vue, Cable TV and Antenna TV e-program guides or at least the Google TV model for searching all media and presenting choices. They can't now do this for YouTube or the Vidipath model.


Back to the two proposals...I think both will be supported in the short term. The long term when cable is ready to move to all IPTV and RF channels are eliminated (2020) due to 4K is in question. TV RF channels are not as efficient and 4K requires more than one 6Mhz RF channel which means to support 4K with RF channels requires replacing all boxes and the head-end for the cable company. 4K will be IPTV for sure.

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#4

Post by glugglug » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:51 pm

jeff_rigby wrote:
glugglug wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:Cable follows standards very similar to ATSC 2.0 as the Antenna TV channels are supposed to be passed through unchanged to cable except for headers that can remap the channel numbers for Cable's channel lineup.
The Cable channel map isn't within the QAM stream of the channel. Instead there is a separate OOB signal at 75MHz where the map is periodically delivered. Which I guess means a 6-tuner CableCARD device really has 7 tuners, with the extra one picking up the OOB signal?

With SDV, some of the channels aren't actually in the map, as they are not assigned a frequency and transmitted until someone requests them either with a tuning adapter or the set top box, which in either case is basically a cable modem making SOAP requests to the headend to request the channel be sent and getting a response saying what frequency/subchannel # it will be sent with.

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#5

Post by jeff_rigby » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:50 pm

jeff_rigby wrote:Cable follows standards very similar to ATSC 2.0 as the Antenna TV channels are supposed to be passed through unchanged to cable except for headers that can remap the channel numbers for Cable's channel lineup.
The Cable channel map isn't within the QAM stream of the channel. Instead there is a separate OOB signal at 75MHz where the map is periodically delivered. Which I guess means a 6-tuner CableCARD device really has 7 tuners, with the extra one picking up the OOB signal?

With SDV, some of the channels aren't actually in the map, as they are not assigned a frequency and transmitted until someone requests them either with a tuning adapter or the set top box, which in either case is basically a cable modem making SOAP requests to the headend to request the channel be sent and getting a response saying what frequency/subchannel # it will be sent with.
You are talking about the program guide. I'm talking about a header in the IP stream that is used to remap the channel. For example, For Antenna TV CH 13 in my area is actually Ch 12 remapped for us dumb users as 13 to avoid confusion. Cable TV does the same and if you have a cheap cable box without guide, the same thing occurs. If you have a more expensive Cable box with guide something else happens and you are correct it's a legacy system from the old Analog days and Out of Band below usable TV channels.

SDV switched video works with the more expensive cable boxes with two way communication. I had to look that up..interesting. It's not part of the basic cable lineup that is available on the cheap boxes without two way. To save bandwidth some systems only send select channels as needed, using a free RF channel and the cable box takes care of everything. It likely is used for catchup on-demand programming and It saves on having a IPTV server at the headend and likely on our side we get a message that DVR trick modes are not available.

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#6

Post by jeff_rigby » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:14 pm

DavidinCT wrote:
IT Troll wrote:This is interesting news. Isn't it planned to roll-out Windows 10 to XBox One? If so surely it isn't much of a leap to make this available to PCs?
It's Xbox one STREAMING to Windows 10. I used it to play a few games, it works pretty good over all. If the feature is Xbox one only and not on the PCs (no TV option for Windows 10 right now besides streaming services), I don't see it coming to PCs unless your going to stream it from the Xbox one and in that case, just use the xbox one...

Microsoft has no plans right now to support Cablecards in the Xbox one, from what I understand this is the big license cost why WMC is not included/an option in Windows 10, as Microsoft would need to get Windows 10 re-certified for cable labs standards at a very large cost.

In my area, I am lucky if I get 2-4 channels OTA and that is religion channels and PBS, so pretty much nothing I will watch, maybe blue moon type of things nothing I would spend the money on. I have an original HD home run dual tuner QAM/OTA, if I got good channels I would be using it in my HTPC now...

So, let's see, Xbox one as DVR, Need a minatory external USB 3.0 drive to use the feature, Limit of OTA and 1 tuner only ? A joke to me, I'll stick with WMC for another few years
Game consoles are easier to make DRM secure. You will find that Antenna TV then 4K blu-ray with digital bridge allowing streaming on the home network and then Cable TV will come first to the XB1 and then to OEM platforms that meet Windows 10 (Playready 3 and Playready ND) DRM requirements. There will be no Cablecard in 2016 but the PC, XB1, PS4 or any platform using the Downloadable Security scheme the FCC will support will need to be DRM certified. Vidipath platforms are certified by DTLA and independent labs to be DRM secure, comply with standards and support several hardware networking mode standards. I don't know if this would suffice for the FCC but it might.

I gather that you didn't read the links I posted, SO some selections:

From http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... ch2015.pdf"] Microsoft's Playready 3 site Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14
"The game console, acting as a PlayReady ND transmitter, has obtained a license from the service and it sends media files to valid PlayReady ND receivers that are part of the same in-home network. It also uses PlayReady technologies to build and issue local licenses to authorized receiving devices. Note that this model can also be applied to both live streams, video-on-demand and DVR content."


Playready 3 and Playready ND break with older versions of Playready in that as a subset they do not include WMDRM10 which is not considered secure enough for 1080P and 4K media. It appears https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn798511.aspx"] Playready ND and WMDRM10 ND used for DTCP-IP can coexist. http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... _2015.docx"] This paper from Microsoft section 8 deals with DTCP WMDRM ND media being issued a Playready ND license. Section 13 sets the same "local" home networking restrictions for Playready ND that are set for WMDRM ND when used with DTCP-IP. Playready 3 and Playready ND now work with media in that the media can tell playready the security level it needs and the hardware is supposed to tell Playready what level of security it supports.

What PC running Windows 10 will be DRM secure? One that contains a APU from AMD (trustzone processors from 2010) or a 2013 or later Intel APU or an older PC with a newer dGPU from AMD or Nvidia. For true ARM TEE level DRM security like the XB1 and PS4 have you need a ARM SoC where everything enters encrypted and exits as HDCP encrypted for the HDMI port.

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#7

Post by STC » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:00 pm

Jeff, please clarify `No CableCard for 2016`.
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#8

Post by jeff_rigby » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:08 pm

STC wrote:Jeff, please clarify `No CableCard for 2016`.
The Congress directed the FCC to eliminate the requirement for a cable card by 2016. The recommendation of the FCC DSTAC will take place September 4, 2015 and the FCC should implement the DSTAC recommendation. The proposals are as I previously stated. A Downloadable security scheme will be implemented in 2016.

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#9

Post by STC » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Going OT, I may split this off later. These are TiVo`s thoughts on the matter. I had read this some time ago. Naturally they are pro-biased but most probably on the ball IMO.

http://blog.tivo.com/2015/01/future-of- ... caFu_l2FQJ

My money is still on a CableCard external tuner for the xbox that can come into active service very quickly and be an interim solution for DRM broadcast material until newer tech makes it to production and release.
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#10

Post by jeff_rigby » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:49 am

STC wrote:Going OT, I may split this off later. These are TiVo`s thoughts on the matter. I had read this some time ago. Naturally they are pro-biased but most probably on the ball IMO.

http://blog.tivo.com/2015/01/future-of- ... caFu_l2FQJ

My money is still on a CableCard external tuner for the xbox that can come into active service very quickly and be an interim solution for DRM broadcast material until newer tech makes it to production and release.
The proposals by DSTAC are for hardware that supports TEE DRM which every ARM platform since 2006 exceeds (XB1 AND PS4 have ARM SoCs) and products from 2006 like the PS3 comply with also. There is no wait for newer tech.

Again from the discussion, http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 47697.html Comcast just signed an agreement with Sony to use Passage This plus last year's http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.ph ... stcount=85 Sony Job posting for a Sony representative to help cable companies with Vidipath and more mean it's likely soon.
This Software Project Manager is responsible for attending and representing Sony in multiple industry forums, such as working closely with MSOs (Cable TV providers) on Regulation and standardization for DLNA, HTML5 RUI, CVP2, HDMI, MHL, and other related technologies.

Solid experience in HTML5, DLNA, and UPnP
Solid knowledge of HDMI and MHL technologies
Solid knowledge of DLNA CVP2 certification process
Provide knowledge to W3C on testing and specifications related to HTML5
Solid understanding of DTCP encrypted MP4 DASH content
After Jan 2015 Microsoft is not charging for the use of their Playready server. They would only do that if they think it would become a standard used by Cable TV.

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#11

Post by glugglug » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:26 am

jeff_rigby wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:Cable follows standards very similar to ATSC 2.0 as the Antenna TV channels are supposed to be passed through unchanged to cable except for headers that can remap the channel numbers for Cable's channel lineup.
The Cable channel map isn't within the QAM stream of the channel. Instead there is a separate OOB signal at 75MHz where the map is periodically delivered. Which I guess means a 6-tuner CableCARD device really has 7 tuners, with the extra one picking up the OOB signal?

With SDV, some of the channels aren't actually in the map, as they are not assigned a frequency and transmitted until someone requests them either with a tuning adapter or the set top box, which in either case is basically a cable modem making SOAP requests to the headend to request the channel be sent and getting a response saying what frequency/subchannel # it will be sent with.
You are talking about the program guide.
I'm not talking about the program guide, or any legacy analog system, or any kind of "expensive cable box". I'm talking about how the CableCARD tuners, TiVos, and every digital cable box in North America knows what frequency and subchannel to tune to for each channel.

Example subset of the channel map from the web interface on my Ceton InfiniTV6:

Image

First column is the channel number most people know about. Last column is the QAM channel it is actually tuning to. So for example tuning to 63-1001 on a digital TV would tune to CBS, but the TV doesn't know about the channel map to let you use the more convenient number, only STBs and cable card tuners do.

Also, SDV has nothing to do with catchup programming/on-demand. Time Warner and Cox use it in 100% of their set top boxes, and require USB tuning adapters be used for Tivo/CableCARD tuner users to use SDV to tune a large number of their basic cable channels, especially the HD channels (as opposed to TWC catchup/on-demand programming which didn't even support HD when I switched to FiOS 3 years ago...).

The Tru2way stuff for on-demand programming is totally separate, and the clients for it are actually Java applications supplied by the cable company, so I would not expect to EVER see it supported by non-rented equipment.

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#12

Post by glugglug » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:53 am

jeff_rigby wrote:The long term when cable is ready to move to all IPTV and RF channels are eliminated (2020) due to 4K is in question. TV RF channels are not as efficient and 4K requires more than one 6Mhz RF channel which means to support 4K with RF channels requires replacing all boxes and the head-end for the cable company. 4K will be IPTV for sure.
Are you sure about this? The reason North American cable providers are so cramped for bandwidth and have to resort to SDV is because our digital TV is MPEG-2 while most of the rest of the world is using H.264. H.264 is easily 5 times more bandwidth efficient at the same quality. (If you believe DivX it's 11x.) To be considered supporting ATSC 2.0 rather than 1.0, a TV must already support H.264, even here. The reason cable companies are ending up using SDV instead is because they are hanging on to 10+ year old STBs which don't support H.264 in order to be grandfathered out of the integration ban (which was recently lifted anyway).

The limit of a single 6MHz RF channel in OTA is ~19Mbps. But for cable, 38Mbps per RF channel is typically used, because sending a signal through a wire has much better SNR than OTA. This is close to the limits of blu-ray, from a single RF channel, and I doubt any actual blu-ray title uses that much. In fact, I recall a lot of blu-ray players being incompatible with Avatar when it was first released, as it was one of the first titles to go over half that.

I think if they switched to H.264 (which is already in the ATSC 2.0 standard), it would easily be enough to support 4K, and if they were smart they would skip H.264 for 4K and go straight to HEVC/H.265.

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#13

Post by jeff_rigby » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:29 am

glugglug wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:The long term when cable is ready to move to all IPTV and RF channels are eliminated (2020) due to 4K is in question. TV RF channels are not as efficient and 4K requires more than one 6Mhz RF channel which means to support 4K with RF channels requires replacing all boxes and the head-end for the cable company. 4K will be IPTV for sure.
Are you sure about this? The reason North American cable providers are so cramped for bandwidth and have to resort to SDV is because our digital TV is MPEG-2 while most of the rest of the world is using H.264. H.264 is easily 5 times more bandwidth efficient at the same quality. (If you believe DivX it's 11x.) To be considered supporting ATSC 2.0 rather than 1.0, a TV must already support H.264, even here. The reason cable companies are ending up using SDV instead is because they are hanging on to 10+ year old STBs which don't support H.264 in order to be grandfathered out of the integration ban (which was recently lifted anyway).

The limit of a single 6MHz RF channel in OTA is ~19Mbps. But for cable, 38Mbps per RF channel is typically used, because sending a signal through a wire has much better SNR than OTA. This is close to the limits of blu-ray, from a single RF channel, and I doubt any actual blu-ray title uses that much. In fact, I recall a lot of blu-ray players being incompatible with Avatar when it was first released, as it was one of the first titles to go over half that.

I think if they switched to H.264 (which is already in the ATSC 2.0 standard), it would easily be enough to support 4K, and if they were smart they would skip H.264 for 4K and go straight to HEVC/H.265.
The same UHD 4K reasons Cable is going IPTV are the same reasons ATSC 3.0 is incompatible with ATSC 1 & 2. 1) It won't fit in one 6 Mhz channel and 2) it requires a Higher S/N ratio for h.265. As you compress video the critical blocks used by Sony's Passage for DRM become even more critical and noise has more of an impact.

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#14

Post by jeff_rigby » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:59 am

glugglug wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:
jeff_rigby wrote:Cable follows standards very similar to ATSC 2.0 as the Antenna TV channels are supposed to be passed through unchanged to cable except for headers that can remap the channel numbers for Cable's channel lineup.
The Cable channel map isn't within the QAM stream of the channel. Instead there is a separate OOB signal at 75MHz where the map is periodically delivered. Which I guess means a 6-tuner CableCARD device really has 7 tuners, with the extra one picking up the OOB signal?

With SDV, some of the channels aren't actually in the map, as they are not assigned a frequency and transmitted until someone requests them either with a tuning adapter or the set top box, which in either case is basically a cable modem making SOAP requests to the headend to request the channel be sent and getting a response saying what frequency/subchannel # it will be sent with.
You are talking about the program guide.
I'm not talking about the program guide, or any legacy analog system, or any kind of "expensive cable box". I'm talking about how the CableCARD tuners, TiVos, and every digital cable box in North America knows what frequency and subchannel to tune to for each channel.

Example subset of the channel map from the web interface on my Ceton InfiniTV6:

Image

First column is the channel number most people know about. Last column is the QAM channel it is actually tuning to. So for example tuning to 63-1001 on a digital TV would tune to CBS, but the TV doesn't know about the channel map to let you use the more convenient number, only STBs and cable card tuners do.

Also, SDV has nothing to do with catchup programming/on-demand. Time Warner and Cox use it in 100% of their set top boxes, and require USB tuning adapters be used for Tivo/CableCARD tuner users to use SDV to tune a large number of their basic cable channels, especially the HD channels (as opposed to TWC catchup/on-demand programming which didn't even support HD when I switched to FiOS 3 years ago...).

The Tru2way stuff for on-demand programming is totally separate, and the clients for it are actually Java applications supplied by the cable company, so I would not expect to EVER see it supported by non-rented equipment.
I don't doubt you but we are not talking the same thing. My TV can receive the FCC mandated local channels must be provided unscrambled on Cable TV without a cable card. When I scan for them regardless of where they are in the Cable TV lineup like for instance 73. something for Ch 13 it shows up on my TV as Ch 13. This TV has no internet or OOB ability. In the IP stream for a channel is a header that can be used for remapping a channel. This is the same for Antenna TV as it is for Cable. When we start using clear QAM tuners and DSS the channels will show up just as the cheap cable boxes display them. There will be no program guide except by cable modem. If you connect via Vidipath then the Cable TV gateway does the guide.

I don't know how SDV will work with USB tuners but you say they are using them now with SDV? Does it also requires that the USB tuner/platform also have Internet ability because clear USB and HD Homerun network tuners do not have OOB ability. HD Homerun prime does work with a cable card and it has OOB. The HTML5 proposal using DSS with CLEAR QAM tuners do not use a cable card and do not support OOB.

Vidipath platforms do support Java but the listed reason is for XTV and IoT applications.

This is interesting because there are two proposals, one (HTML5 from a browser) is using clear QAM tuners and that will create issues that are exposed in our posts for premium, SDV and other Cable TV programming. The other proposal is Vidipath from a Cable TV gateway which supports all the Cable TV features transparently.

For the HTML5 proposal, the Cable TV DSS requires Internet connectivity for the downloadable security scheme and includes what you have authorization to view. I'd guess a guide could also be downloaded and it could function just like a higher end cable box.

Cable TV companies want to get out of the Cable box rental business and with UHD requiring nearly every cable box now on the market being replaced they want Vidipath implemented soon and every premium subscriber supported by 2017-2020.

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#15

Post by glugglug » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:49 pm

jeff_rigby wrote:My TV can receive the FCC mandated local channels must be provided unscrambled on Cable TV without a cable card. When I scan for them regardless of where they are in the Cable TV lineup like for instance 73. something for Ch 13 it shows up on my TV as Ch 13. This TV has no internet or OOB ability. In the IP stream for a channel is a header that can be used for remapping a channel.
The TV providers are terrible about keeping the metadata that is sent in the stream with the channel, because it isn't used by their own STBs. FiOS at least it works for the local HDs (to display them as 2-1, 4-1, 5-1, etc. not the FiOS 502, 504, 505, etc channel numbers). When I had TWC, the metadata was received in the ClearQAM channel scan for 6 channels out of a total of 70-80 unencrypted channels, and these were a subset of the ones recompressed to substandard even for SD quality.
I don't know how SDV will work with USB tuners but you say they are using them now with SDV?
Yes, for more than 5 years now. The tuners are not USB, the tuning "adapters" supplied by the cable company are. In order to use a TiVO or CableCARD tuner with TWC or Cox today, you must get a bulky, power-hungry, unreliable tuning adapter supplied by the cable company that connects to the PC, TiVO, or ethernet tuner through USB (and also has its own coax connection like a cable modem), and have firmware/driver support for the thing, in order to request some channels to start being sent. If noone on your block is already watching the channel, the request to start watching it can take up to 30 seconds.
Does it also requires that the USB tuner/platform also have Internet ability because clear USB and HD Homerun network tuners do not have OOB ability.
Hard to parse this sentence. If asking what I think, my guess would be that Vidipath will require internet ability to request the channels to be sent for SDV or to download the map as my understanding is the existing tuning adapters are basically just cable modems with some software to make SOAP requests over some separate private network to the cable company, and why not just send the requests through ethernet?[/quote]
Cable TV companies want to get out of the Cable box rental business
I have a hard time believing this. Companies like TWC effectively make $35/month per DVR, between the separate line items for "DVR Rental", "DVR Service", "Service Duplication" and "Guide Data" fees for each one. If they really wanted out of the STB rental business, why would they give CableCARD users such notoriously horrible support?
and with UHD requiring nearly every cable box now on the market being replaced they want Vidipath implemented soon and every premium subscriber supported by 2017-2020.
Some providers are recompressing their SD channels to < 1Mbps, and HD channels to ~6Mbps, as MPEG-2. This is about the same as an SD DVD using that codec, and less bandwidth than used for Netflix super-HD, which uses H.264 for much better quality. Cable HD then ends up comparable to Netflix SD. Why would cable "UHD" not then just upgrade to H.264 or HEVC and be a bit better than Netflix HD?

There isn't a single UHD OTA channel yet. It took almost 10 years between the first ATSC HD broadcast (1998) and most customers getting HD boxes. Surveys show most Americans still can't tell the difference, and as recently as 5 years ago, most of them still had their HDTV still hooked up through an analog connection that only supported SD! I doubt very much that UHD deployment will be any faster.

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#16

Post by richard1980 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:06 am

jeff_rigby wrote:Cable TV companies want to get out of the Cable box rental business
:lol:

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#17

Post by jeff_rigby » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:49 am

glugglug wrote:
There isn't a single UHD OTA channel yet. It took almost 10 years between the first ATSC HD broadcast (1998) and most customers getting HD boxes. Surveys show most Americans still can't tell the difference, and as recently as 5 years ago, most of them still had their HDTV still hooked up through an analog connection that only supported SD! I doubt very much that UHD deployment will be any faster.
There is too much happening to provide "sound bytes" or easily digestible statements. For instance there is no UHD OTA channel because UHD can't be supported with the current ATSC scheme, ATSC 3.0 will be incompatible with older schemes. ATSC 2.0 OTA features have not been supported yet except with IPTV from cable modems. They have been delayed because older TVs can't handle h.264 coming in through the tuner nor do they support NRT and browser. Smart TVs with browser can support ATSC 2.0 both from OTA and Cable.

Chicken and egg issues are delaying OTA ATSC 2.0. A Smart TV with browser or TV tuner attached to a XB1, PS4, PS3 or new PC can support OTA ATSC 2.0. A Vidipath TV or STB can be used with OTA ATSC 2.0 with the latter using a USB or network tuner. Vidipath TVs can support the DSTAC Downloadable Security Scheme and with a TV tuner the XB1, PS4, PS3 and new PCs can support the same because they are also Vidipath. So a new class of platform able to be a Cable TV STB or OTA ATSC STB will soon be available with firmware update in numbers to solve the chicken and egg issues for both cable and OTA.

I believe Sony and Microsoft along with Cable companies are trying to over come the chicken and egg issues to offer new features for commercial reasons. Cable companies to prevent cord cutting and CE companies because they see advantages for their platforms to compete against cheap TVs. Sony sees 4K and the digital bridge along with Vidipath allowing media and game streaming in the home as a big seller for blu-ray disks and their platforms.

In the DSTAC WG4 paper it mentions a third and fourth proposal and one just takes the Open HTML 5 and substitutes a APP provided by the Cable company. In all cases a Smart TV with the DSS scheme does not need a STB and the XB1, PS3, PS3 and PCs just need tuners in the short term on some Cable systems. Cable is moving to all IPTV which in all cases I've mentioned do not need Cable boxes and a DSS is needed. The paper mentions Cable going all IPTV and outlines all media delivery... https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg4-dr ... 042015.pdf In fact tuners are not part of the proposals as they are, to be more accurate than my OP; 1) a Virtual head end = Vidipath Cable Modem with DLNA and 2) HTML5 delivered as IPTV from a cable modem but tuners are mentioned around page 122 in the proposals and are considered a legacy requirement (my read).

My read is that Cable companies will have to support the FCC DSTAC recommendation but that does not prevent them from supporting Vidipath or providing their own app to CE companies to allow a PC, XB1 or PS4 to be a Vidipath DVR which in turn can support other Vidipath clients in the home. I.E. the XB1 becomes a Virtual Comcast X1 Vidipath DVR. The Sony Job posting posted 454 days ago and Comcast using Sony's Passage then makes sense:
This Software Project Manager is responsible for attending and representing Sony in multiple industry forums, such as working closely with MSOs (Cable TV providers) on Regulation and standardization for DLNA, HTML5 RUI, CVP2, HDMI, MHL, and other related technologies.

Solid experience in HTML5, DLNA, and UPnP
Solid knowledge of HDMI and MHL technologies
Solid knowledge of DLNA CVP2 certification process
Provide knowledge to W3C on testing and specifications related to HTML5
Solid understanding of DTCP encrypted MP4 DASH content
= https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/13896747

Comcast signs with Sony to use their Passage http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 47697.html

MHL = connecting a phone or tablet to a TV to view content from the Phone or tablet on the TV screen. Phones and Tablets can support being a Vidipath client from a Vidipath server and Android 5 has TV features supporting a tuner.
Miracast does the same using WiFi Direct but requires a common DRM and negotiation between them = required Vidipath features

glugglug

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#18

Post by glugglug » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:29 pm

Assuming you are right about UHD not fitting in a 38Mbps QAM channel (I don't believe this for a minute - in fact I bet we'll see at least 2-3 UHD channels per QAM with HEVC), that eliminates any chance it will ever be supported by Cable providers, especially as IPTV!!!. Cable modems use RF, just like the cable channels, with the same bandwidth per channel. The way cable ISPs have been recently able to offer 100+ Mbps connections is by having the cable modem use 4 channels at once. There are of course a very limited number of channels for the modems to use, shared with everyone in your area, so the advertised bandwidth values rely on the fact that at any given moment, 95+% of the cable modems are completely idle. If there was a popular TV show streamed through IPTV, it better be far below 5Mbps, or cable users won't be able to view it.

Sending live TV as QAM RF, rather than IP streams to individual users, is saving bandwidth. If a show is encoded at 10Mbps, and 1000 people on the headend are watching it, since they are all just tuned to the same QAM signal it is occupying only 10Mbps of bandwidth from the headend. As IPTV it would take 10Gbps. Assuming a UHD channel took 75Mbps of bandwidth, and you got rid of all the bandwidth used for current RF channels, you could have at most ~65 viewers per headend on IPTV.

The only "cable TV" providers who will be able to handle IPTV on a mass scale are fiber ISPs, which have near negligible coverage of this country. With the current shared bandwidth over copper coax that most people have it simply can't work.

jeff_rigby

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#19

Post by jeff_rigby » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:34 pm

STC wrote:
makryger wrote:...if they can make this work with the hdhrp...
If they do intend to support CableCard, mark my words: my money is on a dedicated external tuner that will ONLY work with xbox. Way more revenue to be leeched.

Ceton or Silicondust or both....

/edit: Most probably USB, and not Ethernet.
The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed. These two tuners; Happauge USB and Silicon Dust's HD Homerun were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript. HTML5 TV tuner Control will work for both Cable TV and Antenna TV.

1080P supported by the XB1 DVR mentioned in the article that started this thread is for ATSC 2.0's 1080P which supports h.264, 1080P, S3D, Non-Realtime-Transmission and XTV which is mentioned more than 10 times in the 2010 leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint. The marketing and media plans in that paper are being implemented now. https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/micr ... eak.52805/
"Media Hub Record TV in the background and serve up to any device in the home"
"the only box you will need in your Living room"
"Enjoy in your living room or anywhere in your Home"
"Enjoy the complete Xbox experience, any time, anywhere, any screen"
ATSC 2.0 features pass through to Cable TV and Microsoft has plans to support that too. With respect, Cable cards will not be required in 2016 which makes it possible for the USB and HD Homerun tuners to to be used without Cablecard. The XB1 can also be a Vidipath client and when Cable moves to all IPTV a tuner is no longer necessary. Some Cable systems are ready to implement all IPTV now and are waiting on the STBs, others will require a wait for DOCSIS 3.1 cable modems.

XB1, PS4 and new PCs with Windows 10 will be 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge and stream media 1080P & 4K from it and the DVR over the home network. The same is planned for Vidipath.

jeff_rigby

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#20

Post by jeff_rigby » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:51 pm

glugglug wrote:Assuming you are right about UHD not fitting in a 38Mbps QAM channel (I don't believe this for a minute - in fact I bet we'll see at least 2-3 UHD channels per QAM with HEVC), that eliminates any chance it will ever be supported by Cable providers, especially as IPTV!!!. Cable modems use RF, just like the cable channels, with the same bandwidth per channel. The way cable ISPs have been recently able to offer 100+ Mbps connections is by having the cable modem use 4 channels at once. There are of course a very limited number of channels for the modems to use, shared with everyone in your area, so the advertised bandwidth values rely on the fact that at any given moment, 95+% of the cable modems are completely idle. If there was a popular TV show streamed through IPTV, it better be far below 5Mbps, or cable users won't be able to view it.

Sending live TV as QAM RF, rather than IP streams to individual users, is saving bandwidth. If a show is encoded at 10Mbps, and 1000 people on the headend are watching it, since they are all just tuned to the same QAM signal it is occupying only 10Mbps of bandwidth from the headend. As IPTV it would take 10Gbps. Assuming a UHD channel took 75Mbps of bandwidth, and you got rid of all the bandwidth used for current RF channels, you could have at most ~65 viewers per headend on IPTV.

The only "cable TV" providers who will be able to handle IPTV on a mass scale are fiber ISPs, which have near negligible coverage of this country. With the current shared bandwidth over copper coax that most people have it simply can't work.
You have the reason for going all IPTV right there if you also knew the DOCSIS 3.1 specs.

Your right, a 4K blu-ray 9 Mb/sec without counting on S3D 4K coming in a few years or 4K IPTV without error correction or NRT and XTV as part of the stream or Multi-view or having support for future 8K and 22 audio streams should easily fit in a 38 Mb/sec 256QAM 6 Mhz channel. A OTA 6 Mhz channel using 8VSB is about 19.2 Mb/sec. 8VSB was chosen for OTA because it has a higher immunity to noise. It's assumed Cable has less noise so a more efficient 256QAM can be used giving more bandwidth. HD channels on last mile copper are on the sweet spot frequencies that have less noise, SD channels on some of the other higher S/N frequencies. As you use more efficient codecs for higher resolution, noise has more impact and you need more error correction which with RF channel is redundantly sending the same critical parts of a frame..this reduces the effective bandwidth.

DOCSIS 3.1 uses 1024QAM making it 50% more efficient than 256QAM and has built in error correction which is needed in such a case. Because it has error correction it can use frequencies above 800 Mhz to 1,200 Mhz giving something like another 25% usable bandwidth. FIber has less s/n issues but currently fiber converts from Optical to RF channels in the home and that adds cost in that hardware and in the Cable box that needs tuners also. It's also less efficient bandwidth wise.

So you see that both last mile copper and Fiber want to move to all IPTV. Last mile copper is waiting on both DOCSIS 3.1 and STBs and Fiber is just waiting on STBs and standards. Fiber can implement Virtual cable or Vidipath end to end now if the STBs were available. Last mile copper will use Vidipath DVRs that convert RF channels to IPTV streams till they can support DOCSIS 3.1.

IPTV will use multi-cast which has the most popular channels always streaming and everyone shares those streams at the same time similar to how everyone uses the same RF channels on current cable systems.

glugglug, keep it up, you are forcing me to think and correct false assumptions...thanks.

Going all IPTV is mentioned several times in the following papers.

REPORT OF WORKING GROUP 4 TO DSTAC https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg4-dr ... 042015.pdf (summary of every existing media transport scheme) It also adds two addditional schemes that are essentially APPs based on HTML5 written by Cable TV.

DSTAC WG3 Report https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg3-dr ... 042015.pdf (Proposal 1 (HTML5) is at page 23) (Proposal 2 (Virtual Headend, abstracts the cable services ,almost equal to Vidipath end to end) is at page 34) Both read as pure IPTV with no tuners and as such they are the future 2017+ schemes

QAM Tuners are mentioned in both papers and you have to guess a interim scheme using RF tuners and Internet access.

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