Toyota Discussion

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woodchuck

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Toyota Discussion

#1

Post by woodchuck » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:39 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:but I am learning that our exceptionalism does NOT extend to protection of American citizens from the unlimited greed of corporations!
Yes. Both foreign and domestic. Toyota just got penalized for putting profits ahead of safety, and GM is next.

[Moderator note: topic split from the Open Source thread]

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#2

Post by adam1991 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:55 pm

To be fair to Toyota, the biggest thing people will remember about this had nothing to do with them putting profits ahead of safety. The story the sheeple will remember is that "Toyota killed that guy with their runaway car!".

Every time somebody does something stupid in a car and it gets the attention of the 24/7 news monster that's desperate to grab eyeballs to the screen, the story gets twisted into somehow the car did something evil and the poor driver was just a "victim".

60 Minutes started it with their "reporting" of how Audis were busy killing innocent people, and it's become a trend ever since.

Why? Because people are stupid and are willing to believe anything they're spoon-fed, especially if it's about avoiding personal responsibilities.

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#3

Post by barnabas1969 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:45 pm

I've got to wonder about the Toyota sticking accelerator thing. I've actually had an accelerator stick... and I just turned off the ignition. Problem solved. (BTW, it wasn't a Toyota when it happened to me... it was Hyundai)

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#4

Post by woodchuck » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:22 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:I've got to wonder about the Toyota sticking accelerator thing. I've actually had an accelerator stick... and I just turned off the ignition. Problem solved. (BTW, it wasn't a Toyota when it happened to me... it was Hyundai)
I think the problem now might be the newer keyless ignitions. My wife's Toyota and my Audi have it, so there is no classic ignition switch to turn. You are basically hoping the software devs thought about making sure the on/off button works if the throttle is stuck. On my car, I could probably jam it into neutral, but the Toyota has no such option.

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#5

Post by barnabas1969 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:32 pm

woodchuck wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:I've got to wonder about the Toyota sticking accelerator thing. I've actually had an accelerator stick... and I just turned off the ignition. Problem solved. (BTW, it wasn't a Toyota when it happened to me... it was Hyundai)
I think the problem now might be the newer keyless ignitions. My wife's Toyota and my Audi have it, so there is no classic ignition switch to turn. You are basically hoping the software devs thought about making sure the on/off button works if the throttle is stuck. On my car, I could probably jam it into neutral, but the Toyota has no such option.
Try it. Drive down the street, and push the ignition button. It should kill the engine. I can't imagine that they would design it so that you can't kill the engine while driving. I don't think that would pass DOT safety regulations.

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#6

Post by adam1991 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:34 pm

woodchuck wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:I've got to wonder about the Toyota sticking accelerator thing. I've actually had an accelerator stick... and I just turned off the ignition. Problem solved. (BTW, it wasn't a Toyota when it happened to me... it was Hyundai)
I think the problem now might be the newer keyless ignitions. My wife's Toyota and my Audi have it, so there is no classic ignition switch to turn. You are basically hoping the software devs thought about making sure the on/off button works if the throttle is stuck. On my car, I could probably jam it into neutral, but the Toyota has no such option.
The Lexus that guy was driving most certainly could have been thrown into neutral, and in fact every Toyota--even the Prius--can be thrown into neutral. Not sure why you think they couldn't be.

The fact that a trained cop didn't know how to throw the car into neutral is bothersome.

With regard to the push button ignition, pressing and holding it will shut the car off under any circumstances whatsoever.

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#7

Post by barnabas1969 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:39 pm

adam1991 wrote:
woodchuck wrote:
barnabas1969 wrote:I've got to wonder about the Toyota sticking accelerator thing. I've actually had an accelerator stick... and I just turned off the ignition. Problem solved. (BTW, it wasn't a Toyota when it happened to me... it was Hyundai)
I think the problem now might be the newer keyless ignitions. My wife's Toyota and my Audi have it, so there is no classic ignition switch to turn. You are basically hoping the software devs thought about making sure the on/off button works if the throttle is stuck. On my car, I could probably jam it into neutral, but the Toyota has no such option.
The Lexus that guy was driving most certainly could have been thrown into neutral, and in fact every Toyota--even the Prius--can be thrown into neutral. Not sure why you think they couldn't be.

The fact that a trained cop didn't know how to throw the car into neutral is bothersome.

With regard to the push button ignition, pressing and holding it will shut the car off under any circumstances whatsoever.
I agree with what you said about the cop. Every driver should be able to do it. It amazes me when I see a TV news show broadcasting a live situation where someone's car is accelerating out of control on the Interstate highway, and the 911 operator is on the phone with them telling them to turn off the ignition, and the driver says "I can't." That's just BS.

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#8

Post by woodchuck » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:50 pm

You guys make the assumption that under every circumstance the car can experience the on/off will work. Should it work? Hell yes. But the button (or electronic gear selector on a Prius) does NOT operate just like an old fashioned ignition switch. It's run by software. It has bugs. What works today, might not work tomorrow given different inputs. Did Toyota test every scenario they could think of? Yes - of that I am certain. But, are there corner cases that were never thought of, and therefore never tested? Maybe.

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#9

Post by RyC » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:47 pm

I've never tried pushing the off button while driving in my Prius, but shifting to neutral will definitely 100% disconnect the acceleration pedal. The issue is you have to hold the shifter in the neutral position for a second or so in case you accidentally hit the shifter or something.

This thread has gone quite off topic :P

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#10

Post by barnabas1969 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:57 pm

Well, I've never owned nor driven a Prius. I have driven a car that had a "push to start" button... it was a recent model BMW SUV that I rented at the airport in Chicago. I didn't try turning it off while driving, but due to my experience with Windows PC's, I would have tried two things in a situation where I needed to kill the engine... 1) Press the button. 2) If that didn't turn it off... then I would have pressed the button and held it down. Those two actions seem reasonable to me, but I suppose the average driver would never think of trying #2. Most people probably don't read the owner's manual, and that manual isn't easily available to people driving a rental car.

Speaking of rental cars... I will say that since I had never driven a recent model BMW, I didn't know how to start the car! The slot where the "key" goes isn't visible to a tall person (like me) who is sitting in the driver's seat. It is hidden from view from the driver's position. The "key" doesn't look like a key. I assumed that just my proximity to the vehicle should activate the ignition, but when I pressed the "start" button... nothing happened. I actually had to ask the attendant how to start the car. It was one of my most embarrassing moments. She came and showed me the hole into which I should insert the "key". I couldn't see it from my seating position because the steering wheel was obscuring it from my view... I had to lean to the right before I could see it. Once I got it started, nobody said "this is how you kill the engine in an emergency", so most people probably wouldn't know how.

My most recent car, a 2011 Chrysler 200, has an ignition switch that is obviously not a mechanical switch that connects directly to the starter/ignition. For example, I can turn the key to "start", and let go immediately. The starter will continue to turn until the engine starts, even if I let go of the key before it starts. The computer is in control, even though it has a "traditional" ignition key switch.

Because I'm a curious person (geek), I have tested the scenario of driving down the road in my car, and turning the key to "off". The engine stops... just as you would expect it to.

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#11

Post by adam1991 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:31 pm

I like Chrysler's idea on that one. It doesn't matter what you may have changed under the hood; provide a user interface that's consistent with the broad range of people who could come into contact with the car.

And there's no penalty to the performance of the machine just because the user interface stayed consistent.

No, this mania for "MUST BE DIFFERENT OR NO ONE WILL WANT IT!" is dangerous in automobiles. If we end up with hundreds of different user interfaces for the same function, then the world is screwed. I don't want someone piloting a 4000 pound missile at 70mph while he's trying to figure out that function that he just KNOWS must be there SOMEWHERE...

I picked up a 2003 Civic Hybrid (manual trans--talk about rare) last year. It uses the same user interface for the key switch; in fact, it uses the exact same key switch as the non-hybrid model has. But when you twist it to Start, you're simply telling the computer to have the hybrid system turn over the engine. The tradition engine starter doesn't engage. (It's still there, but only as a backup for when the hybrid battery can't respond. In fact, the entire car can be driven as normal--albeit not with much pep--should the high voltage battery/motor setup decide not to function. You'll get lights on the dash, but the car will start and run otherwise normally.) Smart of Honda.

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#12

Post by barnabas1969 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:45 am

Gotta agree with Adam. In addition to the starter running after I let go of the key, it also won't grind the starter if I hold it too long, or twist it to "start" while the engine is already running.

After teaching my son to drive in my car, it took him a while to get used to the mechanical ignition switch in the 2002 Hyundai that I bought for him (and no... that wasn't the car that had the stuck accelerator... that happened in a 1988 Hyundai back when I was in my early 20's). He would either let go of the key before the engine started, or he would grind it. It only took him a few tries before he figured it out.

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#13

Post by Just13d » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:45 am

I had a Mercury Mystic that the throttle stuck one day. I have driven cars since I was 14 and rode motorcycles since I was 6 so I know how to kill a engine when needed. That said when it happened it never crossed my mind to turn off the ignition. First thing that came to mind was call 911 so I did. I talked with the operator for I would say was 2 min and it was not until she asked me how I planned on stopping the car that it clicked in my mind that I can just shut it off. I traveled a couple miles during this at about 85mph. I had to keeping pushing the brake down to keep it at that speed. We got the car home and found that a o-ring/seal had dropped down into the throttle and was holding it wide open. Have not seen that one on a recall yet. Oh and to stop the car I even thought about riding the divider wall on the highway before shutting it off came to mind. If there would have been traffic that day I would have crashed it to keep from hurting anyone else. Just my experience that once in that situation it might take a minute to process what to do.

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#14

Post by barnabas1969 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:00 pm

I guess I'm just too rational. Calling someone while driving an out-of-control car would have been last on my list of things to do.

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