WMC vs Other DVRs

[STC]

**Topic split from the guide data thread

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

[dellybelly]

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

This brings up my question; everyone complains about set top boxes and paying each month but WMC seems to have dwindled down even as set tops have gone up in price (and features to be fair). What happened? the fear of EOL of WMC? Too technical? Issues like this guide problem maybe?

It seems to me that this would explode now with those things in mind; where did all of the original WMC guys go? did they just go back to STB's? Or is it just that Ceton got in the game a bit too late and interests died?

[glugglug]

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

This brings up my question; everyone complains about set top boxes and paying each month but WMC seems to have dwindled down even as set tops have gone up in price (and features to be fair). What happened? the fear of EOL of WMC? Too technical? Issues like this guide problem maybe?

It seems to me that this would explode now with those things in mind; where did all of the original WMC guys go? did they just go back to STB's? Or is it just that Ceton got in the game a bit too late and interests died?

Ceton got into the game about the same time MS seems to have disbanded the eHome team or whoever was working on it. People are afraid to use a product almost requiring an internet connection to its owner when the owner is clearly hoping it goes away. Even ignoring the Windows 8 version of WMC being a downgrade from the Windows 7 version compatibility-wise, there seem to be major issues with it on each and every major Windows 8 update. So sticking with WMC at this point almost implies sticking with an OS whose active support ends Jan. 2015. Who wants to take bets on whether the Win8.1 WMC still works properly in the weeks following the upcoming April Win8.1 service pack?

[kingwr]

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

This brings up my question; everyone complains about set top boxes and paying each month but WMC seems to have dwindled down even as set tops have gone up in price (and features to be fair). What happened? the fear of EOL of WMC? Too technical? Issues like this guide problem maybe?

It seems to me that this would explode now with those things in mind; where did all of the original WMC guys go? did they just go back to STB's? Or is it just that Ceton got in the game a bit too late and interests died?

Being amongst the "original WMC guys," I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes, it was about moving to better technology. In 2004, a whole home DVR was unheard of. There were rumors from Moxi and some others, but Windows M C E was the only game in town. As the other platforms evolved, they eventually surpassed Windows M C E / WMC in capabilities, especially in PQ. I don't know how many WMC users are watching 1080P movies and sports in flawless quality like I get from DirecTV. Plus I get on demand, interactive sports content, YouTube, Pandora, whole-home DVR, tablet and phone apps, and no interruptions in guide data, all in one ecosystem. Way better than anything that WMC can provide. So, for those users who weren't here to get rid of STB fees, they probably moved on when the cable and satellite companies came out with more advanced technology and left WMC languishing in its mid-2000s state.

[woodchuck]

Being amongst the "original WMC guys," I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes, it was about moving to better technology. In 2004, a whole home DVR was unheard of. There were rumors from Moxi and some others, but Windows M C E was the only game in town. As the other platforms evolved, they eventually surpassed Windows M C E / WMC in capabilities, especially in PQ. I don't know how many WMC users are watching 1080P movies and sports in flawless quality like I get from DirecTV. Plus I get on demand, interactive sports content, YouTube, Pandora, whole-home DVR, tablet and phone apps, and no interruptions in guide data, all in one ecosystem. Way better than anything that WMC can provide. So, for those users who weren't here to get rid of STB fees, they probably moved on when the cable and satellite companies came out with more advanced technology and left WMC languishing in its mid-2000s state.

I have to agree with you on all of that. I had the chance to setup a friends house with DirecTV & the integrated RVU's that exist in many smartTVs. Pretty darn awesome! I'm still on 7MC at my place though. Right now with two small kids, I don't have the need for "whole home", but if I did, the DirecTV setup would be at the top of the list.

[barnabas1969]

Being amongst the "original WMC guys," I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes, it was about moving to better technology. In 2004, a whole home DVR was unheard of. There were rumors from Moxi and some others, but Windows M C E was the only game in town. As the other platforms evolved, they eventually surpassed Windows M C E / WMC in capabilities, especially in PQ. I don't know how many WMC users are watching 1080P movies and sports in flawless quality like I get from DirecTV. Plus I get on demand, interactive sports content, YouTube, Pandora, whole-home DVR, tablet and phone apps, and no interruptions in guide data, all in one ecosystem. Way better than anything that WMC can provide. So, for those users who weren't here to get rid of STB fees, they probably moved on when the cable and satellite companies came out with more advanced technology and left WMC languishing in its mid-2000s state.

I guess I should check out the DirecTV whole-home setup. When I got into Media Center in February 2011, my cable company still didn't have anything remotely close to Windows 7 Media Center... and their crappy whole-home "solution" would have cost me $86.00 more per month than what I'm paying now. I've compared W7 Media Center's PQ to the cable boxes from Brighthouse Networks, and I can definitely say that Media Center blows them away.

How much are you paying for DirecTV? When does your deal end, and what will it cost at that time? Do you have any premium channels (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, The Movie Channel, etc) included in your price?

Does DirecTV provide your Internet service? If not, how much extra are you paying for that? If DirecTV is your ISP, how has the Internet experience been... given that satellite Internet service has much higher latency than other ISP's? (for those who don't know, satellite Internet service has much higher latency due to the distance the signal travels from the satellite in space, plus the return path via ground-based transmission lines, which are typically POTS) Also, if you have satellite Internet, how much do you pay for the phone line (or DSL line, or whatever) in addition to the satellite service? (for those who don't know, satellite Internet service requires a traditional phone line for the return path).

Also, in addition to your download/upload speed limits, please post any monthly data caps.

Thanks for the info.

EDIT: I should also mention that I live in Florida. We have lots of severe weather here (it rains "cats and dogs" almost every day in the spring/summer, and frequently in the fall/winter too). It is not uncommon in the summer to receive 2 inches of rainfall in a single hour. Heck, I've seen 2 inches fall in 30 minutes some days... not even during a storm that is officially classified as a "tropical storm". Just yesterday we had 50 MPH winds and torrential rain. And that was "just a little storm" by Florida standards. During a "real" storm, the streets become rivers in my neighborhood. Thankfully, I'm on pretty high ground. My neighborhood didn't flood during the "100-year flood" caused by Tropical Storm Fay in 2008. My neighborhood is at the head of the Eau Gallie River (which drains to the Atlantic Ocean via the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway), so drainage here is very good... but the streets were still rivers for a while. Literally everyone I know who has satellite TV experiences "rain fade" on a frequency that I consider unacceptable. Many of them also have degradation or total loss of signal when there is heavy cloud cover which extends from low altitude up to high altitude... which is also a common occurrence here in Florida.

[dellybelly]

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

This brings up my question; everyone complains about set top boxes and paying each month but WMC seems to have dwindled down even as set tops have gone up in price (and features to be fair). What happened? the fear of EOL of WMC? Too technical? Issues like this guide problem maybe?

It seems to me that this would explode now with those things in mind; where did all of the original WMC guys go? did they just go back to STB's? Or is it just that Ceton got in the game a bit too late and interests died?

Being amongst the "original WMC guys," I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes, it was about moving to better technology. In 2004, a whole home DVR was unheard of. There were rumors from Moxi and some others, but Windows M C E was the only game in town. As the other platforms evolved, they eventually surpassed Windows M C E / WMC in capabilities, especially in PQ. I don't know how many WMC users are watching 1080P movies and sports in flawless quality like I get from DirecTV. Plus I get on demand, interactive sports content, YouTube, Pandora, whole-home DVR, tablet and phone apps, and no interruptions in guide data, all in one ecosystem. Way better than anything that WMC can provide. So, for those users who weren't here to get rid of STB fees, they probably moved on when the cable and satellite companies came out with more advanced technology and left WMC languishing in its mid-2000s state.

Thats interesting; I suppose there are more like you than with my motivation. While cost was considered in my situation (a kid on the way) it was mostly a nice benefit of owning my own equipment which I always prefer if there's an option. I guess you have to consider the Tivo's also; so if I take your logic there are lots of options for people to use that have actual active support with a company behind it.

While the cable boxes have come a long way; they still don't handle my stored media; even with my X1 and my Verizon box I had to have my HTPC connected with XBMC anyway. I still think WMC is the most effective solution for mixing local content and actual live tv. Even with it's age; my wife was able to understand how to play our local content right inside WMC as opposed to having my harmony switch to xbmc and back again like before. Sounds like im in the minority now days.

[barnabas1969]

For me, there were four choices.

Option 1: Cable company's whole-home DVR. Besides costing an extra $86/month, it was limited in several ways. First, in order to have more than 2 tuners available for recording, you needed more than one DVR box. Each DVR box costs more than normal cable boxes, plus... and this was the big deal for me... they don't have a shared recording schedule! So... if you schedule more than two simultaneous shows to record on a single box (or if you want to watch a 3rd show while two are recording), there's a tuner conflict! Their "solution" doesn't automatically use an un-used tuner on a different DVR! Stupid.

Option 2: At the time, TiVo had the "Premier" DVR. But... if you recorded a show on a Premier in one room, and wanted to watch it in a different room... you had to COPY it across the network! Besides the fact that this takes time and nobody wants to wait to start watching their show... it didn't work with copy-protected content! Beyond stupid.

Option 3: AT&T U-Verse. They have a whole-home solution, and it's competitively priced. However, there is a limit of 4-channels tuned simultaneously (no matter if recorded or watched live) per household! And... to make matters worse... only 2 of them can be HD! I've got 10 tuners in my system, and there are frequently times when there are 5-6 HD shows recording. My kids like to watch live TV in addition to recorded TV, so we definitely need at least 8-9 tuners. We don't watch standard definition anything anymore.

Option 4: Windows 7 Media Center. I can have as many tuners as I want, all HD. I can combine OTA, Cable, and Satellite sources if I want (I use OTA and Cable, and I am thinking about FTA satellite). It costs me $2.99/month per CableCARD, which is cheaper than renting a single HD cable box. I can have as much storage space as I want, and keep my recordings as long as I want... even if I dump Cable TV (whereas if I rent a cable box, I lose my recordings whenever I return it). I can backup my recordings, so if there is a hardware failure... I don't lose anything. I can automatically skip commercials on copy-freely programs (with some imagination, I can even do this with my copy-once recordings!). I can watch my copy-freely recordings anywhere on any device, and I can take them with me anywhere I go (again, With some imagination, I can even do this with my copy-once recordings too). I could go on, and on, and on.

With Windows Media Center, the possibilities are as limitless as my imagination.

[RyC]

DirecTV is not an ISP and satellite internet should not be considered unless there are no other options. The latency is one thing, but there are extremely low usage caps that make it pretty much useless for any multimedia. Once you hit the cap, you're throttled to what seems to be dial up speeds lol

Also, I believe they make satellite internet with return now so you don't need a landline return line

[barnabas1969]

DirecTV is not an ISP and satellite internet should be considered unless there are no other options. The latency is one thing, but there are extremely low usage caps that make it pretty much useless for any multimedia. Once you hit the cap, you're throttled to what seems to be dial up speeds lol

I think you mean that "satellite internet should [not] be considered..." I agree with that. Latency is horrible on satellite. I don't know about the caps. Dial-up speeds, in today's world, would not be acceptable for anything but e-mail.

My point is that, even if kingwr is getting some limited-term special pricing deal from DirecTV... he is also paying for Internet services. In today's day and age, you need Internet service, and you want it to be fast. So, even if he's getting some limited-term special price (and I know he is), it doesn't include Internet service. So... let's be honest. How much is he paying?

[RyC]

DirecTV is not an ISP and satellite internet should be considered unless there are no other options. The latency is one thing, but there are extremely low usage caps that make it pretty much useless for any multimedia. Once you hit the cap, you're throttled to what seems to be dial up speeds lol

I think you mean that "satellite internet should [not] be considered..." I agree with that. Latency is horrible on satellite. I don't know about the caps. Dial-up speeds, in today's world, would not be acceptable for anything but e-mail.

Indeed, fixed it sorry

[barnabas1969]

I edited post #10 to add more detail.

[barnabas1969]

Also, I believe they make satellite internet with return now so you don't need a landline return line

I wasn't aware of that. If it's true, it will require a different dish than the normal dish (which is one meter in diameter or less to comply with FCC regulations which prohibit HOA's, land-lords, and others from preventing you from installing a dish, and also different electronics with the power to transmit a strong enough signal for the satellite to receive it.

Even with a two-way path for communicating with the satellite without land-based signal paths, you have to deal with the latency. The signal travels at the speed of light. The time it takes for a signal to travel from Earth to the satellite and back is at least 240 ms, due to the distance traveled... not including the delay added by the hardware (FYI: satellites don't run the latest, fastest processors... they are designed to run on VERY low power). Surveys have shown that average latency for satellite Internet service is actually greater than 600ms. That means that for every packet of data sent by your computer (e.g. to request a page from a website), you will wait more than half a second before you receive a response. The data sent by your computer is frequently divided into multiple packets, and often there are delays between sending packets due to local processing delays. Additionally, the data coming back from the website is almost always divided into multiple packets, unless the response is very small (e.g. a small page with nothing but a very small amount of text). Each packet requires an acknowledgement (ACK). Each ACK adds another 600+ ms delay. The slowness of satellite Internet service are absolutely noticeable by a human... and would be unacceptable by most of us.

[dellybelly]

I have my internet through Fios and get their quantum 50 and their mid tier channel selection for 105 every month and this is 3 years in; so all my promos already ran out; when I had my boxes total cost was approaching 160. 1 dvr box at 20 2 HD boxes at 15 each....insane for functionality easily replicated with my HTPC and extenders. At the cost I recoup my investment in 4 months.

One of the nice things is that even without a cable box you can still stream live TV on your tablets with the Verizon app which is a nice bonus; when heading to the bathroom I don't have to pause anything.

[glugglug]

Also, I believe they make satellite internet with return now so you don't need a landline return line

I wasn't aware of that. If it's true, it will require a different dish than the normal dish (which is one meter in diameter or less to comply with FCC regulations which prohibit HOA's, land-lords, and others from preventing you from installing a dish, and also different electronics with the power to transmit a strong enough signal for the satellite to receive it.

Even with a two-way path for communicating with the satellite without land-based signal paths, you have to deal with the latency. The signal travels at the speed of light. The time it takes for a signal to travel from Earth to the satellite and back is at least 240 ms, due to the distance traveled... not including the delay added by the hardware (FYI: satellites don't run the latest, fastest processors... they are designed to run on VERY low power). Surveys have shown that average latency for satellite Internet service is actually greater than 600ms. That means that for every packet of data sent by your computer (e.g. to request a page from a website), you will wait more than half a second before you receive a response. The data sent by your computer is frequently divided into multiple packets, and often there are delays between sending packets due to local processing delays. Additionally, the data coming back from the website is almost always divided into multiple packets, unless the response is very small (e.g. a small page with nothing but a very small amount of text). Each packet requires an acknowledgement (ACK). Each ACK adds another 600+ ms delay. The slowness of satellite Internet service are absolutely noticeable by a human... and would be unacceptable by most of us.

The ACK delay is largely irrelevant nowadays. Window sizes have also dynamically adjusted based on the bandwidth/latency ratio since Vista, unless an app explicitly requests otherwise. Selective ACK support has been supported by Windows since at least 2003, and is enabled on each connection by default in Windows 7 and I think even Vista. Selective ACK is what makes the huge window sizes over a flaky connection more practical. Instead of ACKing every packet, the receiver can periodically send an ACK after a large group of packets and instead send a NACK to say "I'm missing this sequence number" when the sequence number skips suggesting a packet may have been dropped.

However, your typical web page now contains dozens if not hundreds of separate entities that need to be requested from servers (various iframes, javascript snippets, images, etc), and each one of those will involve a round trip delay for the HTTP request/response and possibly another DNS lookup and/or new connection 3-way handshake. So basic web surfing would suck pretty badly.

[barnabas1969]

I have my internet through Fios and get their quantum 50 and their mid tier channel selection for 105 every month and this is 3 years in; so all my promos already ran out; when I had my boxes total cost was approaching 160. 1 dvr box at 20 2 HD boxes at 15 each....insane for functionality easily replicated with my HTPC and extenders. At the cost I recoup my investment in 4 months.

One of the nice things is that even without a cable box you can still stream live TV on your tablets with the Verizon app which is a nice bonus; when heading to the bathroom I don't have to pause anything.

I hear you. I have 30/2 Internet (actual speeds are usually 32 down, 2.5 up) with no caps. I don't have phone service at home, but I do have some premium channels. My bill, including taxes, is $147.55. I could save $15 (plus tax) if I dropped HBO, and another $14 (plus tax) if I dropped Showtime.

I've attached my channel lineup, sorted by name so that it's easier to see duplicated channels (e.g. same SD and HD channel). I get all of the "Basic", "Standard", and "Premier" channels. I don't subscribe to the "HD Pack", but they are pretty cheap... I think it's an extra five bucks/month. I don't know the price of the other packages. I don't give a rat's behind about sports... there is plenty of sports programming in the channels I already receive. If you're a sports nut, you can always subscribe to those during the season of your preferred sport... and then cancel when the season is over (my sister's boyfriend subscribes to the NASCAR channels part of the year - and it's really cool to watch the race from the driver's seat of your favorite driver).

I get many of the Spanish language channels (Nuestros Canales), even though I don't pay extra for that. My wife's native language is Romanian, which is a Latin language, so she understands Spanish even though she doesn't speak it... so I left those in the EPG. Her elder daughter, who currently lives in Romania, will be coming to live with us permanently soon... so she may like these channels too.

My SHO/HBO subscription includes all of the channels for them. I keep Showtime because we watch some of the series on Showtime. We subscribed to HBO when Showtime was blocked due to the conflict between TWC and CBS (BHN gets their programming from TWC). I got HBO free for 3 months, and never cancelled it. I may cancel eventually, but honestly... HBO has lots of good movies.

Cinemax (skin-e-max) seems like nothing but soft porn to me.

I can't check right now, but it seems like I get some TMC (The Movie Channel) channels now for free.

I don't subscribe to any "adult" channels.

Of course, I can't get the "free" On-Demand channels with Media Center... but I honestly never missed them (I thought I would when I first converted to Media Center, but I didn't miss On-Demand at all). There are so many other options for "on-demand" that I actually save money by not impulsively renting over-priced movies from the cable company. I'm sure they hate the fact that they are losing this revenue stream.

Of course, I also get all the music channels included in my subscription. I also get several channels (without extra subscription) that show local sports (high school and college) and news.

I also have an external antenna and four ATSC tuners. These give me all the big local channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, ION), which are also available on cable, plus a bunch of local independents (RetroTV, QUBO, ION-LIFE, MeTV, AntennaTV, Telemundo, The Florida Channel, The Church Channel, JCTV, enlace TBNUSA, LATV, myTV, thisTV, estrellaTV, and many others) and PBS stations which are not available on cable. I'm not very interested in the local religious channels (most are utter crap), but the non-religious non-network content that I receive (for free) via the antenna is pretty impressive. All told, there are more than 50 locals available OTA. You can't get that on pay-for satellite, and no other DVR besides Media Center offers you the ability to mix cable/satellite/OTA sources. There are several interesting "FTA" satellite channels available in North America too... and I would like to experiment with them someday too.

I also have access to many channels via the cable co's app, but I don't use it.

One nice thing that BHN includes with my Internet service is unlimited WiFi in many areas in Central Florida... which saves me on my cellular data plan... and the speed is comparable to what I get at home (30Mbps download in many areas using BHN WiFi).

I can use the Brighthouse smartphone/tablet app to watch TV at home, or on BHN WiFi... so I could actually watch cable channels on my smartphone at the local Hooters, if I wanted to.

The really cool thing about BHN's WiFi service is that I have actually worked "from home" while sitting at a table at Hooters. I've also done it at the beach! Not a bad deal, IMHO. There is nothing like sitting at a table working on your laptop while a beautiful young woman serves you a burger and a beer. Well... except sitting in a chaise lounge on the beach.

ChannelLineup.zip

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[mark1234]

Also, I believe they make satellite internet with return now so you don't need a landline return line

This does exist. A friend of mine lives in an area where BT considers <3Mb to be acceptable, so he uses two way satellite instead.

http://www.toowayinternet.co.uk/

[mike_ekim]

Looking at the amount of hits to this topic we certainly appear to be a dying breed

This brings up my question; everyone complains about set top boxes and paying each month but WMC seems to have dwindled down even as set tops have gone up in price (and features to be fair). What happened? the fear of EOL of WMC? Too technical? Issues like this guide problem maybe?

It seems to me that this would explode now with those things in mind; where did all of the original WMC guys go? did they just go back to STB's? Or is it just that Ceton got in the game a bit too late and interests died?

When people are considering setting up their own DVR, I don't think most of them think 'Windows doesn't love WMC anymore so I better avoid it'. I think WMC's strong point is copy protected cable content, but the downsides are that WMC sucks at integrating streaming content, the interface is old-school and hard to modify without paying, and you need to drop $ on a tuner card. A lot of people building their own DVR are completely cutting cable and going to streaming-only services, torrenting like a boss or ripping all their redbox/netflix discs. WMC has little appeal for those people. Especially when you can put XBMC on a PC with no Microsoft license at all, or run a Plex server and stream to everything.

If you want to build a media library with cable, WMC is the way to go or maybe MediaPortal if you don't care about copy-once flagged content.

Being amongst the "original WMC guys," I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes, it was about moving to better technology. In 2004, a whole home DVR was unheard of. There were rumors from Moxi and some others, but Windows M C E was the only game in town. As the other platforms evolved, they eventually surpassed Windows M C E / WMC in capabilities, especially in PQ. I don't know how many WMC users are watching 1080P movies and sports in flawless quality like I get from DirecTV. Plus I get on demand, interactive sports content, YouTube, Pandora, whole-home DVR, tablet and phone apps, and no interruptions in guide data, all in one ecosystem. Way better than anything that WMC can provide. So, for those users who weren't here to get rid of STB fees, they probably moved on when the cable and satellite companies came out with more advanced technology and left WMC languishing in its mid-2000s state.

Agreed 90%. I think the new whole-home systems with multi-device support are awesome. If you are at work and someone mentions a show you want to watch, you can program your DVR with your phone or computer, and you don't need to be your own tech support and it doesn't take 2 months of research to set it up. Amazing. Two points (for me):

1. I still see crappy compression from every provider on at least some of their programming. They have made great steps to improve, and usually the the major sports channels have better quality because sports fans demand it, but if you watch the 7th hockey channel on a sports package then chances are it's not going to be as good as the super bowl broadcast. Then you switch to a more obscure movie channel and there's a campfire scene where the fire looks like an Atari game. I have a set top box (live TV only, no DVR) side by side with my WMC box because we are still making the transition. If I switch between inputs and look at certain details like a person's cable knit sweater or the detail in a person's hair or face, sometimes the cable box quality is better and sometimes it is not. For mainstream viewers the quality of the provider's set top box may trump MCE, but for people with more fringe viewing habits they are still a tie.

But maybe my cable provider sucks....

2. Even the best whole-home DVR systems still don't have enough storage for me, and that storage is tied to the box/provider so when you upgrade the box or switch providers you lose all your recordings. I had a couple of really good shows on my old DVR - howls moving castle, spirited away. The last time I checked, they were not available for rental on any sites. I would rather not pirate, but I would also rather not pay $20 for a DVD of a movie I already recorded. If I had built my WMC a couple of years sooner, instead of being dependent on my cable company's DVR, I would still have those recordings.

[blueiedgod]

I can tell you that for me moving to Windows M C E was not about the cost of set top boxes

I wish I were independently wealthy and not worry about the cost of things. But, I am not. So, for me it was all about costs.

My kids could really care less if Barney or Dora are 1080i /1080p HD or in SD, as long as it is available.

If I want to see a game in true HD, I just go to the game, and watch it live

[pittsoccer33]

2013 was the first full year in history that pay tv subscriptions declined.

Its true that there is a renewed interest in using an antenna along with potentially a DVR box of some sort. But what scares the cable companies and content providers is that young people are never signing up for cable - but they are watching this stuff. People are coming out of college and see the cost to sign up for internet+pay tv being in the $100 price range and think forget that. Between Hulu, their friend's HBO Go password, and the torrent sites they don't want to pay it.

As things move towards more on demand programming the need for a DVR will continue to diminish.