Long term vision; where does my home setup go from here?

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dpt17

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Long term vision; where does my home setup go from here?

#1

Post by dpt17 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:34 pm

It's now 2018. Ceton appears dead. WMC is slowly dying as Win7/8 fade. Silicon Dust is alive but moving at a slow and steady pace. For sure, the DVR service released in the last year and the promise of 6-tuner HDHR this year are encouraging signs ... but where is my DRM support for HBO? I still use Comcast for TV but I've sensed that there is little enthusiasm in the industry to continue support for CableCard. And, with their development efforts with the X1 platform, Android apps, and online streaming, they appear to want to own the entire experience. We have online streaming cord-cutting services, but you'd have to stitch half a dozen different service subscriptions together to duplicate the breadth that cable provides.

With a mix of Comcast Cablecards, InfiniTV 4, HDHR Prime, Win7 HTPCs, Android phones, and a pfsense router (to change HDHR packet ttls), I've built my own X1 platform that I can use anywhere (inside or outside my home network) via WMC or HDHR Viewer Win10/Android apps, or VLC media player. But, I fear it could all come crashing down on short notice.

What am I and-- what are we-- to do?

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#2

Post by Scallica » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 pm

Have you considered Tivo? Yes, it's expensive, but it is a great product.
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#3

Post by dpt17 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:13 pm

Scallica wrote:Have you considered Tivo? Yes, it's expensive, but it is a great product.
I hadn't looked at Tivo in years. I just skimmed their site...

The volt is intriguing. It's certainly an option if Silicon Dust can't save the day but Tivo looks just as vulnerable to CableCard being legislated away. It's interesting though. I suppose via installing Plex + their desktop software I could get and host the recorded files beyond the hard drive limits of their devices. So, my main HTPC would stop being the primary thing for TV (it has the InfiniTV4 in it) but I could still use it as a Steam+Origin gaming box and media server (plex). Can you actually get to the recordings files or are they encrypted by the Tivo PC software? Today, I can get at all of the WMC or HDHR DVR files.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Tivo might be option to look at when the existing equipment I have dies off. Even today it would certainly have an advantage over what I have with respect to 4K UHD. Because I still have Win7 on most PCs for WMC + HBO/DRM watching, I haven't been able to get to Win10 + z270 chipset for possible 4K streaming though that is still very immature at best. It feels sad that I've had to rely on Samsung TV apps for that.

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#4

Post by DavidinCT » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:55 pm

dpt17 wrote:It's now 2018. Ceton appears dead. WMC is slowly dying as Win7/8 fade. Silicon Dust is alive but moving at a slow and steady pace. For sure, the DVR service released in the last year and the promise of 6-tuner HDHR this year are encouraging signs ... but where is my DRM support for HBO? I still use Comcast for TV but I've sensed that there is little enthusiasm in the industry to continue support for CableCard. And, with their development efforts with the X1 platform, Android apps, and online streaming, they appear to want to own the entire experience. We have online streaming cord-cutting services, but you'd have to stitch half a dozen different service subscriptions together to duplicate the breadth that cable provides.

With a mix of Comcast Cablecards, InfiniTV 4, HDHR Prime, Win7 HTPCs, Android phones, and a pfsense router (to change HDHR packet ttls), I've built my own X1 platform that I can use anywhere (inside or outside my home network) via WMC or HDHR Viewer Win10/Android apps, or VLC media player. But, I fear it could all come crashing down on short notice.

What am I and-- what are we-- to do?
This is a topic I ask myself time to time. It all depends on what you want to do, when it all comes down to it. If your JUST looking for a DVR with streaming sources, MOST upper end cable or sat boxes can do this but, you limit your customization of the device (you might be able to change colors of the menus...one of those 1 looks good 4 are ugly type things). If you want a custom device that does EXACTLY what you want, then you need to evolve your system. Upgrade as newer software comes available. It is a passion of love more than a NEED.

WMC could be kept on life support forever if you wanted it to. Once a better DVR software comes, you can integrate it into WMC and remove the old shortcuts or replace the whole thing.

Truth is, the Home theater PC (HTPC) is a nitch market and always has been. There will never be a large company making software for this who will be the next billion dollar company. With this being said, a HTPC is personal thing and a lot of epic things will be far and few in-between.

You make it the way you want, not how others want it and that is why most of us do this.
-Dave
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Windows Media Center certified and WMC MVP 2010 - 2012

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#5

Post by dpt17 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:59 pm

Of course; this is a hobby as much as it is a need. Passion is a necessity. I enjoy the building/creation aspect of it. It started with a retired gaming PC and a desire to repurpose that into a better home setup for a lower cost (since I wouldn't need a blu-ray player, smart tv, cable box, xbox, trips to bar to watch sports etc ...) and grew into a hobby from there.

I guess what I was trying to point at is there seems to be a crucial inflexion point coming soon with the technology and I worry about all that I have vested in my system ... time, money, pride ... Sure this is niche market. But at least it exists. What I fear is that industry forces are moving in a direction to take it all away.

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#6

Post by jachin99 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:00 am

I agree with most of what David said, its just something I enjoy. I'm a really visual person so the cable box just drives me INSANE. Truth be told, I don't even like much TV. For impressing friends, etc, most wish they could do something like this but never take the leap, and I truly believe cable card has been the limiting factor. I bet i could still impress plenty of people with XP MCE. I don't have to have it but it gives me something to be passionate about that doesn't cost a fortune.

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#7

Post by adam1991 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:55 pm

A couple of years ago I bought an OTA Tivo, lifetime, from their Black Friday sale for $200. I had no specific plans for it; I thought I might play with it, see what it's about, compare it to WMC, and have it as backup if my WMC rig died and I didn't feel like rebuilding it.

In a fit of stupidity, I gave it to my brother who decided to cut the cord. So now he's happy with it, but now Tivo stuff is more expensive and no refurbs like before.

I like watching some network TV, but it's to the point where most stuff--the non-CBS stuff--is available to me via Hulu the next day, without commercials. Only CBS stuff and a couple other things like The Blacklist are must-DVR items.

My WMC is getting a bit creaky, but it still works and I do still use it. So maybe when it dies, I'll move on--but when that happens, I'll go the zero-effort route with Tivo, depending on how much OTA stuff is still out there for me.

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#8

Post by dpt17 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:02 am

I've taken a look at Tivo. The fact that it claims 4K support is nice. At the moment I only have one 4K set but that will change over time I'm sure. I don't have much confidence in the industry supporting 4K streaming on Win10 PCs very well. Thus, the Tivo bolt + satellite minis could be a good option down the line. The price point isn't too bad at $179 for a mini but that doesn't include WiFi so you could be forced to get an AP and put it in client mode which puts the whole cost in the $200s. For sure, finding a basic system with Win10 on >= z270 with >= i7-7XXX cpu or >= GTX 1060 may not cost more $250 in 2020, but if the app support isn't built then it's worthless. In fact, I can recall how late 1080p movie streaming support came to PCs; for too long, 720p was the best you could do.

All of my satellite PCs are Win7 making January 2020 when my WMC party ends-- though I could continue on without the support, I am loathe to run a Windows version that is no longer getting security patches. Trying to scrounge up Win8.1 license keys to extend a stale WMC for 3 more years seems like a complete waste. The plan for me is to wait another 18 months and see what progress Win10 apps + SiliconDust can make or reroll Tivo.

In the meantime, Tivo Bolt/Mini listed support for Plex Media Server has shamed me into the realization that my simple Windows file share for recorded TV isn't sexy enough. I'll get that setup at home and be ready for Tivo if SiliconDust doesn't ride in on a white horse and save the day.

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#9

Post by DavidinCT » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:38 pm

dpt17 wrote:I've taken a look at Tivo. The fact that it claims 4K support is nice.
Ah, 4K... The next adventure for most. Windows Media Center DOES/can run at 4K, You can play native 4K videos and movies in 4k. Even some streaming sources (using Chrome with Youtube will result Epic looking 4k videos for example). Just set the desktop to 4K, and then go into TV settings and do custom and set your 4K res. There is no broadcast in 4k as of now, so if any DVR claims 4K, it's scalling it's menu into 4K and if it's allowing 4K PPV or streaming sources, accept for PPV, it can be done in WMC...

This is my adventures getting it working correctly...

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... f=5&t=8325

There is some needed hacks (or some error comes up time to time) but, it is fully scalable to 4K. I have been running it like this for over 2 years now.

Trust me, it's the NEXT level in how WMC looks. The limits are is the themes you use. If you use a 2k (1080p) theme, it will get a little grainy depening on the acuall image used.

I have test personally... Running off a USB drive directly in the TV (a very fine point on a high bit rate demo with a magnifing glass), and with the same video in WMC... No noticeable difference, impressive results in WMC running at 4K
-Dave
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#10

Post by dpt17 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:13 pm

Thanks for the suggestion. I was mentioning Tivo more along the lines of the fact that it's a device and that devices have gotten 4k support sooner VS PCs where it's much more complicated at the moment. As such, it might be less hassle to reroll with a device like Tivo rather than pull my hair out upgrading/replacing my current Win7 WMC HTPCs.

However, you have given me another angle to look at with getting my main HTPC to use my 4k Samsung set better. In 1080p world I had been running everything directly from the PC to the TV as a monitor. When I got a 4k set last fall, I had to use the Samsung TV apps instead to stream movies because the in-browser upscale was atrocious, although WMC and PC games set to 1080p would upscale nicely (via the TV's algorithms). The TV has a "PC" mode where it doesn't step and change the picture at all. I tried that with Mass Effect Andromeda but the box only has a GTX 1060 in it so the GPU isn't good enough for 4k gaming (unlike my other pc which has a 1080ti in it). The 1060 should be able to do 30fps @ 4k so I will try out your WMC suggestion and see what happens.

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#11

Post by dpt17 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:00 pm

I tried out Plex over the last few months. It's been great -- an instant upgrade over my poor man's file share on my home network for recorded/saved movies and TV. And, it has recently added a grid TV guide and Live TV stream features. So, I no longer need to use VLC media player and pfsense's packet filtering to export my HD Homerun Prime TV feeds out of my house. Although VLC is great for viewing the Prime (via typing in a URL into the network stream dialog), it didn't seem to be able to buffer incoming streams and handle hiccups. Plex is great in that it can buffer the stream and auto-tune the stream speed. Lastly, Plex has been a breeze to share my collection with family members. The only "Con" for me for plex so far is that I've had to rename a lot of my files to fit a format it can recognize to get all of the meta data. But that's not an insurmountable problem for my movies and TV. For sure, I will need to find an automated tool for that if/when I get to my 1000s of music files.

I bought a lifetime plex pass for $120 or something like that. Whatever happens with WMC, Plex has improved file sharing for me. If either Plex (not likely) or SiliconDust (somewhat likely) can develop support for premium, copy-once live TV (e.g. HBO), I'll be in great shape for January 2020 when Win7 is scheduled to stop getting security fixes.

The next move for me is to follow along with SiliconDust's progress with the 6-tuner HD HomeRun Prime-- which they claim is due this year. Ceton still looks dead. It's probably worth it to replace my 3-tuner HD Homerun Prime + Ceton InfiniTV4 with the 6-tuner prime.

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#12

Post by Space » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:35 pm

Just an FYI. You can change the buffer size in VLC for streams. I use VLC 2.2.6 (latest versions of VLC seem to not work with streams for me for some reason). "Media->Open Network Stream" and then check the "Show more options" box and you will be able to specify a "Caching" parameter in milliseconds. I believe this parameter may also be settable permanently through saving settings and perhaps also through command line parameters.

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#13

Post by dpt17 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:13 pm

Space wrote:Just an FYI. You can change the buffer size in VLC for streams. I use VLC 2.2.6 (latest versions of VLC seem to not work with streams for me for some reason). "Media->Open Network Stream" and then check the "Show more options" box and you will be able to specify a "Caching" parameter in milliseconds. I believe this parameter may also be settable permanently through saving settings and perhaps also through command line parameters.
Thanks! That's good to know about VLC; never noticed that check box before. Any time a stream would hiccup it was usually when I was doing HD ... so I would just switch to the SD feed for the same channel and move on with life. The EZmode that Plex has is nicer for my family who are less technical and needed a lot of coaching to get them to manually type the TV url into VLC.

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#14

Post by Space » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:43 pm

You can set the default for this parameter here:
Tools->Preferences
Show settings: All
Input/Codecs -> Network caching (ms) (set to value you want)
Click on Save button

I set it to 2000 and it seems to work fine, the default is 800.

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#15

Post by dpt17 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:48 am

SiliconDust has added DRM support for Live TV! Happened in last several days. I can watch HBO on my main PC, which is Win10, for the first time in 3 years. I can watch HBO on my Android phone. And, from what I read it will work on NVIDIA shield. I'm sure Xbox will be supported too. No DVR support at the moment for DRM content.

This is really good news. Assuming Win7 dies in 1/2020 as planned, those PCs can either be upgraded to Win10 or swapped for say an Nvidia shield or an Xbox. Even if no further improvements are done in that time, I'd be able to get by with DVR for open content, live TV for DRM, use HBO Go or Showtimeanytime for missed programs, and Plex to serve up other content.

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#16

Post by dpt17 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:58 pm

Windows 7 has now forced me into considering a long term plan a year early.

Specifically, Windows Update (Winsxs folder) has eaten up all of my disk space on my main HTPC and doing the system clean up yields no gains :x . Granted the 60 GB ssd I had for the installation is puny for today's standards, it was more than enough for Win7 and a fair amount of programs back in the day ... but after many years of Microsoft polluting the Winsxs folder (it has 11.7 GB worth of installation files that cannot be cleaned up) I feel like I am at the end of the line. Though I could just reinstall Win7 on a larger disk, it seems silly given that I'll have to rip it all apart in about a year when Win7 loses support. Also, this box has an InfiniTV4 in it which is slipping away as well. I have been waiting on the HDHomeRunPrime6 to be able to consolidate my InfiniTV4 + HdHomeRunPrime into 1 device. My hope was that that product would get released in 2019 but nothing stops me from using say 2 HdHomeRunPrimes in the near term. The fact that I can now at least watch live HBO w/the Prime and Win10 or Android has made the prospect of losing WMC less scary.

Here's what I am considering doing:
1) Move forward to an all-SiliconDust/Plex/Win10/NvidiaShield world a year earlier than expected.
2) Use Win8.1 w/WMC pack to try and maintain status quo until 2023.
3) Reroll Tivo

I welcome any suggestions.

Q: Does the InfiniTV4 work on Win8.1 or Win10?

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#17

Post by cwinfield » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:34 pm

dpt17 wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:58 pm Windows 7 has now forced me into considering a long term plan a year early.

Specifically, Windows Update (Winsxs folder) has eaten up all of my disk space on my main HTPC and doing the system clean up yields no gains :x . Granted the 60 GB ssd I had for the installation is puny for today's standards, it was more than enough for Win7 and a fair amount of programs back in the day ... but after many years of Microsoft polluting the Winsxs folder (it has 11.7 GB worth of installation files that cannot be cleaned up) I feel like I am at the end of the line. Though I could just reinstall Win7 on a larger disk, it seems silly given that I'll have to rip it all apart in about a year when Win7 loses support. Also, this box has an InfiniTV4 in it which is slipping away as well. I have been waiting on the HDHomeRunPrime6 to be able to consolidate my InfiniTV4 + HdHomeRunPrime into 1 device. My hope was that that product would get released in 2019 but nothing stops me from using say 2 HdHomeRunPrimes in the near term. The fact that I can now at least watch live HBO w/the Prime and Win10 or Android has made the prospect of losing WMC less scary.

Here's what I am considering doing:
1) Move forward to an all-SiliconDust/Plex/Win10/NvidiaShield world a year earlier than expected.
2) Use Win8.1 w/WMC pack to try and maintain status quo until 2023.
3) Reroll Tivo

I welcome any suggestions.

Q: Does the InfiniTV4 work on Win8.1 or Win10?
Why are you worried about the support ending for win 7? You will only no longer receive security updates, and if they stop sending guide info you can use EPG123. I suggest you just reimage to a larger drive it is really not as much work considering the alternatives. As far as IFTV4 does work in win 8.1 but no dice on win 10. My take on the HDHR DVR "solution" it is fine if you can get past the interface and only want to record non protected content. Win 8.1 is ok but has some quirks and the interface is a step back from win 7 even with a interface mod and also if you use echo extenders it pretty much isn't an option. Tivo is great if you want an expensive no fuss system, however if your like me I like to multitask doing PC stuff with a TV window in the corner, you can't do that with a Tivo however they have a web browser stream functionality called tivo online which makes this a possibility. If your still paranoid about a vulnerable system on your network, why not put it behind an additional hardware firewall for $100 new or less used.

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#18

Post by dpt17 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:03 pm

Security updates are the concern. Though it is directly used less now that we have a 4k TV and my wife uses the Samsung TV apps more for things like youtube, the PC is still a Plex media server, WMC client w/local configured InfiniTV4, and PC gaming box w/Steam + Origin. I'd rather not have a system that my wife, kids, and relatives directly use that isn't getting security fixes and Windows Defender (or whatever they are calling it now) updates. I agree that if was just me doing it, there is probably little to no risk remaining on Win7.

Re: InfiniTV4 on 8.1 working but not on 10 ... yeah that's what I thought I had read. Thanks for confirming.

Also, thanks for the tip about Tivo re: multitasking. I definitely do that a lot!

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#19

Post by cwinfield » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:44 pm

Your welcome, best of luck with whatever you end up doing.

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#20

Post by jachin99 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:23 am

Honestly, over the past year, I have stood up a Windows Home Server 2011 box, a newish NUC, built a custom PC, and turned an old PC into a game streamer (Steam), and they will all run 7MC for the forseeable future. I tried Kodi but I just didn't like it. I do a few different things to prevent accidents. 1. I only have two ports open on my router, one for web surfing, and the other for remote web access, which I have verified with a port scan. The port other than 80 is for Windows Home Server Remote web access, and I use Nartec Crypto Guard 2 to disable everything lower than TLS 1.1, and I have completely disabled SSL. I took a few extra steps to secure the web page as well, and I get pretty good grades from PCI compliance scanners on my crypto policy, and Mozilla observatory.

For the accidental link clicking, I use the standard user account on most of the machines, and I use MVP host, as per David's suggestion. I also have antivirus, and a firewall on each machine. I'm still in the process of closing ports on all of the firewalls but I need to be really careful with that. I also enabled password protected sharing on each machine so in case something does happen to one of them, they aren't all authenticated to one another, with the exception of the server. I run nightly backups on the home server box, then I back up the homeserver and my backups to an external hard drive and unplug it. I also chose a router that regularly gets security updates, and has various filters I can enable like adware, P2P, etc. In most cases, weak protocols or services are what get exploited (Think SMBV1) so disabling the services you don't need or use on your machine can go a long way.

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