<sigh> Tivo, here I come?

Chat with other TGB members about whatever is on your mind.
webminster

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#61

Post by webminster » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:09 pm

I agree. And have known for some time that I'm living on borrowed time, but the arrival of the dreaded letter was still a bit of a crush. Am tending toward the TiVo Roamio Pro + Minis at this point, still deciding. SD isn't going where I was hoping, and don't think they're going to wind up with acceptable functionality and WAF soon enough, and idea of swapping the Linksys boxes for Xbox's doesn't make sense in the long run. The X1 boxes just aren't at the same level of functionality as a Tivo, yet.

But there's the other losses I'm less happy with (family retraining, my 18TB nearline storage on QNAP NAS for recorded TV and rips, MyMovies, nice integration of movie rips through WMC interface). Will have to use Plex for a lot of that, and do some retooling on ripped DVDs that just play in WMC. I could just keep WMC running for that, but doubt I will.

Hope TiVo and Rovi get their act together before all this happens.. :-)
-Alan

adam1991

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#62

Post by adam1991 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:51 pm

This. 100% this.

Accept that any technology solution you have will expire and need replacing. Once you accept that, you accept that any technology solution you have will have a yearly cost. No way around that.

Now it's just math. I'm with Bob on the 5 year thing. My WMC is at 5.5 years old now, and just this last weekend I replaced the drives. The recording storage drive, a very reliable Hitachi, finally started dying after 5 or so years of 24/7 use (I bought another HGST). And I took the time and expense to move the OS drive to SSD.

Anyway, now I'm good for another 5 years, at the investment cost of those two drives. It's just math. Compared to the alternative, I'll take that.

Tivo replacement would have been, um, $1100. I dropped what some would call unreasonable coin on my drive replacements--with me it's never about price but about value--but nowhere near $1100.

So just do the math. It may be "ugly and expensive," but you have choices on how expensive it could be:

a) give in and rent the cableco equipment at ongoing, and ever increasing, rental prices

b) buy Tivo one time, pay a bit every month for subscription, rent a cableCARD.

c) give up on pay TV, put up an antenna, and eliminate reception-related subscription costs. Fill in with streaming/rental services of your choice.

Each option has costs and savings and feature sets. I chose (c) early last year; sure, I don't get the cable-only channels, but I only watched 11 channels anyway, and probably 2/3 of them showed the video equivalent of McDonald's food--no big deal missing out on them. The tradeoff was, in addition to Netflix I added Hulu ad-free to my life.

So I gave up on $75 of pay TV, and added $12 of Hulu. I lost Discovery Channel and Mythbusters; so goes life. National networks, Netflix, and Hulu give me plenty to fill the time available.

My wife and kids couldn't have cared less about the switch. Everyone is so scared not to have cable because "that's what everyone is used to". You'd be surprised how easy it is not to have cableco-delivered TV in your house.

In five years, I pretty much guarantee that the industry will force me to change again. What I'm doing now will be as untenable as what the cableco-delivered product became over the years.

But really, if your complaint is the cost, then the cableco-delivered product is at the top of your hit list for elimination. Life is full of tradeoffs. Maybe accepting the cost is the tradeoff; that's just a fact of life.

adam1991

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#63

Post by adam1991 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:59 pm

Seeing that Tivo is experiencing the same Rovi trainwreck that we've had for the past year, makes me glad I didn't jump to Tivo--at least right now.

You're the poster child for diving deep into a piece of technology, to the point where it's difficult if not impossible to rip out. The world will force you to change, and even as you're planning a move you have to think 5 years ahead and set expectations for yourself and for everyone involved.

If I were in your shoes, I'd keep WMC running and going while I simultaneously made a gradual transition over to plan B. You can implement it in stages, perfect each stage for yourself, and introduce each stage to the family gradually--until you realize that no one is actually using WMC anymore, and you can pull the plug.

webminster

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#64

Post by webminster » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:21 pm

Yeah. I'm just grousing, I guess. I expect I'll go the Tivo route in parallel, real soon, and see what I need to do to get there, or at least determine it was a bad idea. I guess I take change badly, maybe I'm just old...
-Alan

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#65

Post by Space » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:08 am

Has anyone seen improvements to the Rovi guide on WMC since the TiVo cutover?

I am talking about things that were chronically wrong with the data, but now appear to be fixed...

I am definitely seeing changes, but I was just wondering if anyone knew of long-standing issues that now appear to be fixed. I am currently looking at issues posted over on the TiVo forums and see that some also exist on WMC. I then look a couple days later and they are fixed on WMC. I don't know if some of these issues existed since day one or if they were just sporadic issues, so if someone knows of a long-standing issue that is now fixed, that would be good to know.

I know things like movie date of release is not gong to be fixed by changes at Rovi (that issue is with Microsoft), but things like shows that didn't have episode specific info that now seem to have it, etc.

The one example is the show "Through the Decades" on Decades channel. It used to just have generic info for each airing (when I checked it a few days ago), now each episode has full episode name, description (some still have a generic description even though they have a unique episode name), and OAD. This was specifically mentioned as a problem in the TiVo forums and it is now fixed. Some other shows on this same channel still don't have episode specific info, so they still aren't being proactive, but hopefully they will try harder now that they have many more people watching.

bob_p

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#66

Post by bob_p » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:18 pm

With the WMC/Rovi change, we lost the "release date" for movies - which was a convenient way to see what recent movies were added to the premium channels.

Otherwise, the Rovi data seems to be working OK for us.

Even though there's a good chance that Comcast won't actually change any channels to MP4 for a few more months, there's a good chance that if TiVo releases a 6 tuner Bolt this month, we may buy one and a Mini - and do a side-by-side test with WMC.

I really wish the SD DVR project was closer to being a whole home DVR replacement, because even though WMC has required more care and feeding, it has provided a lot of flexibility to watch the media we want - anywhere in the house - and away from home. The new PlexDVR sounds interesting, but appears unlikely they would add DRM support.

Streaming is likely the long term replacement for WMC. But not all of the programs we watch are streamed (particularly live sports and news programs), and the picture quality of the streamed programs is now always as good as the cable broadcast. Plus, to get all of the programs we watch, we'd need to use multiple streaming apps, each with their own interfaces - and different strategies for supporting or not supporting navigation during playback or the possibility of forcing us to watch commercials with skip forward disabled.

Comcast's X1 does a pretty good job of integrating their streaming and video on demand services into a single interface - but they impose severe restrictions on playback navigation and force you to watch commercials for some of the streamed programs.

TiVo integrates some of the streaming services into a single user interface - including 4K programs.

Lack of streaming support, integrated into the same user interface, is a missing element in WMC - and something on the list for inclusion in whatever we use to replace WMC - which is lacking from SD's DVR project.

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STC

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#67

Post by STC » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:34 pm

bob_p I found Rovi data to be quite awful in many respects. Perhaps they treat Canada data with less accuracy.
By the Community, for the Community. 100% Commercial Free.

Want decent guide data back? Check out EPG123

bob_p

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#68

Post by bob_p » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:22 pm

It's interesting that Plex has decided to go with Gracenote for guide data with their new Plex DVR. Unfortunately, while they claim to provide a "DVR" without the ability to support live TV (with buffering) and DRM programming, plus no program guide grid, they don't appear to be a viable alternative to WMC either.

WMC has been a great whole home DVR for us for many years. The changeover to Rovi has resulted in poorer guide data, which we could fix using EPG123.

But if Comcast breaks WMC (Xbox 360 extenders) with the H.264 changeover in our area, we'll have to move to something else - and any alternative is going to result in losing something, compared to what has worked so well for us with WMC. With TiVo, we get closest to the functionality we have today with WMC, plus we gain access to major streaming services and Comcast's On Demand programs - but we'll have to deal with the poorer quality Rovi data.

It's disappointing that we are down to only a few options - and each has major problems...

adam1991

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#69

Post by adam1991 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:39 pm

Welcome to the world of technology. What's important is to align your expectations, up front, that the tech world WILL disappoint you. Plan on that eventuality as you design something like WMC into your life.

If your channels don't have DRM on them, perhaps you could mitigate your disappointment with a little effort--maybe MCEBuddy could help you retain your extenders.

Automatic commercial skip and my investment in the extenders--that's what told me to replace my hard drives and keep 7MC going instead of switch to Tivo. I understand your pain. Don't make me change. Get off my lawn.

RyC

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#70

Post by RyC » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:26 pm

FWIW Comcast's H.264 channels (non copy once of course) work perfectly on my Echo and 360. Even comskip continued without needing any adjustments, although it is a bit slower processing H.264

bob_p

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#71

Post by bob_p » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:11 pm

We watch premium channels - HBO, Showtime, Starz - which will likely break if those channels are migrated to H.264.

My plan was to keep WMC running, and switch to EPG123 if/when the program guide service stopped working or became unacceptable. But the H.264 changeover may change that.

If I had confidence there would be a replacement for WMC that would use at least some of my existing hardware (tuners, PC), providing a comparable "whole home DVR" environment, since most of our programming is non-DVR, I might be able to get the family to accept watching those programs using our X1 DVR box for a short term, until we could get back to a single, integrated DVR solution.

Unfortunately, even when SD gets DRM and live TV buffering working with their DVR project, it doesn't appear they'll be close enough in functionality to get family acceptance.

The new Plex DVR project looks interesting (they're using Gracenote data), and, except for watching live TV, may have more functionality already than SD's DVR. But they don't have DRM, and they haven't indicated they will even try to get DRM working.

We've had a pretty long run with WMC, since the early Windows XP days. Microsoft developed a really good product - that stands up well to anything else on the market today, even though they haven't done any development on WMC since Windows 7. But, at some point, it will be time to move on - and for us, Comcast may be forcing our hand.

My wife wants to switch to TiVo and if the Rovi acquisition doesn't kill their DVR product line and they release a 6 tuner Bolt, it will be harder to stay on WMC...

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#72

Post by mcewinter » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:47 pm

bob_p wrote:Unfortunately, even when SD gets DRM and live TV buffering working with their DVR project, it doesn't appear they'll be close enough in functionality to get family acceptance.
One thing that is overlooked as people compare DVRs is that while SD may be moving slow, it will continue to improve. They have a forum and they are listening to their customers (though some might debate that). When buffering does go live, you will have the ability to record the buffer should you decide to record the current show that you're watching. I had wished many times that MC had that ability. I would be reluctant to invest in Tivo for the sole reason that once you buy the equipment, you cannot repurpose it should you switch platforms. You can only sell it hoping that somebody wants an outdated Tivo. The SD DVR has only cost me the price of my kickstarter investment and I can repurpose all/most of the equipment that make up that system.

While the SD DVR might be lackluster at the moment, it gets the job done and it's only getting better.

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#73

Post by webminster » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:24 pm

For those that have decided to go the TiVO route - how have you decided to handle your movie libraries (rips, archived recordings, etc)?

I've used MyMovies to maintain my library of VOB rips, MKV rips of Blu-Rays, and edited wtv files for WMC clients, and exposed the library (except the VOBs) to other clients via Plex. Was initially excited that the Roamio Pro had a Plex client, until I found info that the Plex client on the Roamio couldn't do 1080p, or high bitrate (it transcodes to 720p 4 Mb/s). So sounded like you still need a Roku or other box to handle the movie libraries.
-Alan

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#74

Post by mcewinter » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:17 pm

webminster wrote:For those that have decided to go the TiVO route - how have you decided to handle your movie libraries (rips, archived recordings, etc)?

I've used MyMovies to maintain my library of VOB rips, MKV rips of Blu-Rays, and edited wtv files for WMC clients, and exposed the library (except the VOBs) to other clients via Plex. Was initially excited that the Roamio Pro had a Plex client, until I found info that the Plex client on the Roamio couldn't do 1080p, or high bitrate (it transcodes to 720p 4 Mb/s). So sounded like you still need a Roku or other box to handle the movie libraries.
I find Kodi second best to MC for playing my movie collection. My Raspberry Pi is great movie player if nothing else.

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#75

Post by mdavej » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:35 am

webminster wrote:For those that have decided to go the TiVO route - how have you decided to handle your movie libraries (rips, archived recordings, etc)?

I've used MyMovies to maintain my library of VOB rips, MKV rips of Blu-Rays, and edited wtv files for WMC clients, and exposed the library (except the VOBs) to other clients via Plex. Was initially excited that the Roamio Pro had a Plex client, until I found info that the Plex client on the Roamio couldn't do 1080p, or high bitrate (it transcodes to 720p 4 Mb/s). So sounded like you still need a Roku or other box to handle the movie libraries.
I have no movie libraries, so it's not an issue for me. But I read that Bolt does 1080p plex. Other tools like kmttg and pyTivo can also be used. But I have a secondary streamer anyway. Do you not need another streamer to supplement WMC anyway due to lack of streaming services support?

webminster

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#76

Post by webminster » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:03 am

Have a couple of Rokus. And apps on the main LG OLED, for 4k Netflix etc. But I liked using WMC for the movie rips, due to trick plays and the unified interface. Didn't want the Bolt over the Roamio due to the current Bolt's 4-tuner limit.
-Alan

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#77

Post by Ed  » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:03 am

I use Plex on my Shields/Nexus Players. Even use them for live TV via Live Channels app (thus keeping the TiVo's tuners free, but really cause I'm always in/on the Shields and Nexus Players already/anyway). TiVo only gets used for managing/scheduling/viewing recordings. Also finally took the old HTPC offline and am now running the Plex server off a Synology.

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#78

Post by Space » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:22 am

So, just to follow up, there definitely are changes being made for the better in the Rovi guide data. These changes are also benefiting WMC users.

"Justice Central" a channel that had nothing but general blocks of "Justice Central" all day now have individual listings.
Many network sub-channels seem to be getting episode specific info, whereas before then just had generic data for each program.

They are trying to work on sports programming, but it is still not right (each airing of sports is a separate program, even repeats, so they all get recorded).

Hopefully the data will continue to improve.

Of course there are certain things that will probably never get fixed because they are Microsoft issues and not Rovi.

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#79

Post by bob_p » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:27 pm

mcewinter wrote:While the SD DVR might be lackluster at the moment, it gets the job done and it's only getting better.
SD has been a great vendor for our tuners - while we've been using WMC, I've purchased 5 of their tuners, and they've always provided great service and support for their products.

However, I don't have the same confidence with their SD DVR project, for several reasons. The project has taken, much, much, much longer than they or anyone had predicted. DRM support was the primary reason why many invested in the project - and if we had all known that over a year later we'd still be waiting for DRM support and even live TV with buffering support, it's likely they would have received fewer supporters for this project.

With their funding model, it's not clear they will generate enough revenue from the DVR software to maintain much of a software development team to provide support and continue to add new functionality. And, by supporting so many platforms, that will require a larger amount of software support - just to keep all of the platforms operating, as new operating system and devices are released.

And, they still have not provided any roadmap of what they plan to do with the DVR software - something Kickstarter supporters have been asking for. So we don't even know their long term intentions for this project - or if they ever plan to add enough functionality to be a full replacement for WMC.

The Plex DVR project may be a more attractive alternative - because they have a much larger user base - a larger base of existing software - and Plex provides some of the functionality that will likely always be missing from SD's DVR (music, downloaded/personal videos, 3rd party add-ins, remote/offline viewing, ...). But their beta DVR even lacks live TV support (with or without buffering) and it's not clear if they will ever be able to support DRM. And, they also don't currently support a program guide grid (that my family wants).

I haven't given up on SD yet - I still hope SD or Plex can provide us an acceptable replacement for WMC, though both solutions are missing key features (DRM, live TV/buffering, viewing programs while being recorded, 1.x playback with audio, commercial skipping, program guide grid, ...).

Because we can get those features today with TiVo - and we'd have to make a hardware purchase to support our secondary TVs, no matter what we use as a WMC replacement, it's going to be difficult to justify making any investment in SD or Plex DVR if there are key features missing, and there's no clear indication those features will ever be there.

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#80

Post by Scallica » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:37 pm

LOL, how come every time someone replies to this thread, I see a pic of three guys in Tapatalk (iPhone and Android)?
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