So, after a change from a Ceton card to an HDHR Prime, I'm looking to add another Prime and consolidate all equipment to a basement wiring closet. The closet right now has two coax runs to it, coming from this amp:
http://www.cabletvamps.com/Products/EDA-FT08300.htm
All other coax runs from this 8-port amp are in use elsewhere throughout the house. I will need at minimum four different coax feeds in the closet area - 2 for two TA's and Primes, and 1 each for a cable modem and VOIP modem. I plan on using the coax pass-through on each TA to feed the Primes, to avoid excessive cabling. To accomplish this, I was looking at either one of these products:
http://www.cabletvamps.com/Products/EDA-UG2402.htm
http://www.cabletvamps.com/Products/EDA-UG2802.htm
I was thinking of going with the 8 port version, just to have future expandability if I ever needed it. But when I looked at the specs further, the company states it has a 10.5dB return path insertion loss, or 92% return signal loss. I am concerned that would be way too much signal loss on the return side to support two TA's and two modems.
So, what other options do people suggest? I don't want to use just a straight up splitter, as my signal levels are good right now coming out of the amp I have and I don't want to weaken them further. Would the cable company (TWC) have a splitter/amp that would work in this situation? Would it be better to get another drop in to the house and run that in to another splitter/amp to feed the closet? Would the cable company do another drop, and if so, would they charge extra for something like that?
I know a lot of these questions could easily be asked of TWC, but I have learned in dealing with them it is much better to be armed with information ahead of time on the 50/50 chance I get a CSR that just feeds me a line of BS to get me off the phone.
Need more coax runs
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hmmurdock
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Just a thought... If your closet has two runs going to it, connect #1 directly to the feed from the cable company, move your original distribution amp to your closet and feed it with run #1, then use the 2nd run as a return back to wherever your amp used to be. Use that run to feed the 8 port unity gain amp, and connect everything else back to the UG amp.
As long as the two runs to your wiring closet in the basement are good quality, and all of your TA's Modems, and anything else requiring a return path are in the basement wiring closet, you should be fine.
As long as the two runs to your wiring closet in the basement are good quality, and all of your TA's Modems, and anything else requiring a return path are in the basement wiring closet, you should be fine.
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barnabas1969
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If you feed each of your TA's from the output of the EDA-FT08300, you DO NOT NEED the EDA-UG2402/2802 between the TA and the Prime.
Depending on your setup, the output of the TA may or may not be perfect. You need to try it and test. In my situation, I am using a unity-gain amplifier to two TA's (the one you listed is a 3dB FDC gain [0dB RDC], mine is 0dB in both directions), and then the Primes are fed off the TA's pass-thru outlet (the TA's in my case are SA/Cisco).
I strongly advise NOT to use an amplifier between the TA and the Prime.
And, for the record... I completely disagree with hmmurdock.
Depending on your setup, the output of the TA may or may not be perfect. You need to try it and test. In my situation, I am using a unity-gain amplifier to two TA's (the one you listed is a 3dB FDC gain [0dB RDC], mine is 0dB in both directions), and then the Primes are fed off the TA's pass-thru outlet (the TA's in my case are SA/Cisco).
I strongly advise NOT to use an amplifier between the TA and the Prime.
And, for the record... I completely disagree with hmmurdock.
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barnabas1969
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Drawings would be helpful.
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hmmurdock
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I'm certainly no expert on TA's but if you're saying it's okay to run the TA's off of the original amp, then why do you disagree with me, as that is exactly what I suggested.barnabas1969 wrote:If you feed each of your TA's from the output of the EDA-FT08300, you DO NOT NEED the EDA-UG2402/2802 between the TA and the Prime.
Maybe I missed something, but I don't see where anyone is suggesting that.I strongly advise NOT to use an amplifier between the TA and the Prime.
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barnabas1969
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After re-reading your post, here is what I think you are saying (keep in mind that the OP may have two cables running to his wiring closet, but probably only has one feed from the utility pole to his house):
1) Connect the household feed to a 2-way splitter (splitter #1).
2) Connect the first output from the splitter to the EDA-FT08300 amplifier.
3) Connect the second output from the splitter to another 2-way splitter (splitter #2).
4) Connect the outputs of splitter #2 to both TA's.
5) Connect the outputs from the EDA-FT08300 amplifier to the inputs of the HDHR Prime tuners.
Is that what you're suggesting?
As I wrote earlier, a drawing would be helpful.
1) Connect the household feed to a 2-way splitter (splitter #1).
2) Connect the first output from the splitter to the EDA-FT08300 amplifier.
3) Connect the second output from the splitter to another 2-way splitter (splitter #2).
4) Connect the outputs of splitter #2 to both TA's.
5) Connect the outputs from the EDA-FT08300 amplifier to the inputs of the HDHR Prime tuners.
Is that what you're suggesting?
As I wrote earlier, a drawing would be helpful.
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jziggity
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Yeah, I guess it is kind of hard to explain without a picture. I shall work on that. I would like to use the pass-through on the TA's to feed the Primes, no amp needed in that section. That's the way I have the Prime running now, and it works just fine. Why do you not like hmmurdock's suggestion?
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barnabas1969
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Well, I'm not sure I completely understand hmmurdock's suggestion. A picture from him would be helpful too.
I've tried it both ways... HDHRP fed from the TA, and HDHRP fed from a splitter (TA output not used). The results varied, depending on the amplifier used and the configuration of the wiring in my house. I'm currently feeding both of my HDHRP's from the output of the TA's (each TA feeding one HDHRP). This worked best in my current configuration. However, in my previous configuration, it worked better to feed the HDHRP from a splitter that was connected before the TA.
Right now, I have an 8-port unity-gain amplifier feeding the whole house. The amp's input is connected directly to the cable coming from the utility pole. There are two cables to my wiring closet. Each is fed from a separate output on the 8-port amplifier. One of the cables feeds my cable modem. The other goes to a 2-way splitter. The outputs of the 2-way splitter feed my TA's (SA/Cisco), then the outputs from the TA's feed my HDHRP's.
My testing, which included both up-stream (RDC) and down-stream (FDC) power/SNR of the modem and TA's, and the power/SNR on a variety of channels on the tuners, showed that this was the best configuration. I tried several configurations before I ended up with this one.
Prior to the installation of the 8-port unity-gain amp, the best setup was with the TA's and tuners fed from a single 4-port splitter.
Every setup is different. My advice: Test every possible combination, and choose the one that works best for you.
I've tried it both ways... HDHRP fed from the TA, and HDHRP fed from a splitter (TA output not used). The results varied, depending on the amplifier used and the configuration of the wiring in my house. I'm currently feeding both of my HDHRP's from the output of the TA's (each TA feeding one HDHRP). This worked best in my current configuration. However, in my previous configuration, it worked better to feed the HDHRP from a splitter that was connected before the TA.
Right now, I have an 8-port unity-gain amplifier feeding the whole house. The amp's input is connected directly to the cable coming from the utility pole. There are two cables to my wiring closet. Each is fed from a separate output on the 8-port amplifier. One of the cables feeds my cable modem. The other goes to a 2-way splitter. The outputs of the 2-way splitter feed my TA's (SA/Cisco), then the outputs from the TA's feed my HDHRP's.
My testing, which included both up-stream (RDC) and down-stream (FDC) power/SNR of the modem and TA's, and the power/SNR on a variety of channels on the tuners, showed that this was the best configuration. I tried several configurations before I ended up with this one.
Prior to the installation of the 8-port unity-gain amp, the best setup was with the TA's and tuners fed from a single 4-port splitter.
Every setup is different. My advice: Test every possible combination, and choose the one that works best for you.
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hmmurdock
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No splitters anywhere.
I'm assuming a few things here.
1) The feed from the pole goes directly to his current distribution point (and current location of his 8300 amp)
2) Everything as it is, works without issue.
3) The two drops going from the original distribution point to the basement wiring closet are good quality.
Working on those assumptions, I would move the 8300 to the basement wiring closet, and still feed it directly from the pole (this will require using a F/F coupler to connect the original feed from the pole, to one of the drops going to the wiring closet.) This will physically move the original distribution amp, but logically it will still be the first device (active or passive) that the signal encounters. From my experience, this is what you want driving all of your sensitive/fickle devices.
Since he has a 2nd drop going to the wiring closet, he can use that to go back to the original distribution point by connecting it to one of the outputs from the 8300 (now located in the basement wiring closet) That 2nd drop (now coming from the basement wiring closet, instead of going to it) can feed the Unity Gain amp now installed installed in the original distribution point.
That gives you 7 ports on the 8300 that can be used in the basement wiring closet for modems, tuners, TA's, or whatever else you want. (8 total - 1 feeding the UG Amp = 7 Available)
That gives you 8 ports on the UG amp in the original distribution location to feed everything that was originally connected there.
My drawing skills aren't up to par, sorry.
Edit:
If you think it's best to swap the unity amp and the original distribution amp, I can understand that, but the whole point of my post was to bypass whichever amp is in the original distribution point, so you can feed the amp in the basement wiring closet directly from the pole, then from that use the 2nd drop from the wiring closet to feed the other amp back in the original distribution point.
Top is my understanding of what he has setup now.
Bottom is my suggesting for getting everything working in the basement wiring closet.
I'm assuming a few things here.
1) The feed from the pole goes directly to his current distribution point (and current location of his 8300 amp)
2) Everything as it is, works without issue.
3) The two drops going from the original distribution point to the basement wiring closet are good quality.
Working on those assumptions, I would move the 8300 to the basement wiring closet, and still feed it directly from the pole (this will require using a F/F coupler to connect the original feed from the pole, to one of the drops going to the wiring closet.) This will physically move the original distribution amp, but logically it will still be the first device (active or passive) that the signal encounters. From my experience, this is what you want driving all of your sensitive/fickle devices.
Since he has a 2nd drop going to the wiring closet, he can use that to go back to the original distribution point by connecting it to one of the outputs from the 8300 (now located in the basement wiring closet) That 2nd drop (now coming from the basement wiring closet, instead of going to it) can feed the Unity Gain amp now installed installed in the original distribution point.
That gives you 7 ports on the 8300 that can be used in the basement wiring closet for modems, tuners, TA's, or whatever else you want. (8 total - 1 feeding the UG Amp = 7 Available)
That gives you 8 ports on the UG amp in the original distribution location to feed everything that was originally connected there.
My drawing skills aren't up to par, sorry.
Edit:
If you think it's best to swap the unity amp and the original distribution amp, I can understand that, but the whole point of my post was to bypass whichever amp is in the original distribution point, so you can feed the amp in the basement wiring closet directly from the pole, then from that use the 2nd drop from the wiring closet to feed the other amp back in the original distribution point.
Bottom is my suggesting for getting everything working in the basement wiring closet.
Last edited by hmmurdock on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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barnabas1969
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Just don't forget to look at the whole picture.
Your TA should have an FDC power between +/- 10dB (closer to zero is best, and many people recommend +/- 7dB). FDC SNR (S/N) should be 33dB or higher. The RDC power of the TA should be 25-40dB (the cable company says 52 is OK, but I disagree... I've had problems at 50-51 dB). I've been told that 35-40dB RDC power is the "sweet spot".
The above is also true for your cable modem. The TA and the cable modem operate in very similar ways.
Then, you should test a range of frequencies and make sure that your tuner reports +/- 10dB for every frequency (again, 0dB is perfect, and many recommend +/- 7dB). Note that "fequency" is NOT the same as "channel". It is entirely possible for channel 700 to be on a lower frequency than channel 100.
Let's not forget that signal "ingress" can cause lots of problems too. So, if you have any loose (or poorly crimped, low-quality) connectors, you can have a big problem. When I say "loose", I mean that the connectors should be tightened with a wrench or a pair of pliers (be careful not to tighten so much as to break connections). Use RG6 cable. Use compression fittings, not the screw-on or crimp connectors. The key here is that the shielding should be well grounded, and the center conductor is protected from moisture. If in doubt, ask a professional to scan for signal ingress. Even something as simple as the cable from the wall to the TV in your kid's room (even in a room different from the one where the HDHRP/InfiniTV is located) can cause problems.
Your TA should have an FDC power between +/- 10dB (closer to zero is best, and many people recommend +/- 7dB). FDC SNR (S/N) should be 33dB or higher. The RDC power of the TA should be 25-40dB (the cable company says 52 is OK, but I disagree... I've had problems at 50-51 dB). I've been told that 35-40dB RDC power is the "sweet spot".
The above is also true for your cable modem. The TA and the cable modem operate in very similar ways.
Then, you should test a range of frequencies and make sure that your tuner reports +/- 10dB for every frequency (again, 0dB is perfect, and many recommend +/- 7dB). Note that "fequency" is NOT the same as "channel". It is entirely possible for channel 700 to be on a lower frequency than channel 100.
Let's not forget that signal "ingress" can cause lots of problems too. So, if you have any loose (or poorly crimped, low-quality) connectors, you can have a big problem. When I say "loose", I mean that the connectors should be tightened with a wrench or a pair of pliers (be careful not to tighten so much as to break connections). Use RG6 cable. Use compression fittings, not the screw-on or crimp connectors. The key here is that the shielding should be well grounded, and the center conductor is protected from moisture. If in doubt, ask a professional to scan for signal ingress. Even something as simple as the cable from the wall to the TV in your kid's room (even in a room different from the one where the HDHRP/InfiniTV is located) can cause problems.
Last edited by barnabas1969 on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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barnabas1969
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Now that I've read post #9, I get hmmurdock's idea. I misunderstood at first. However, I still disagree. It is never a good idea to connect the output of an amplifier to the input of another amplifier. Doing so adds more noise (lower SNR aka S/N) and a significantly higher possibility of amplifying the signal beyond the +/- 10dB (+/- 7dB) range that is acceptable.
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jziggity
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All of those assumptions are correct. The biggest concern I had was the degradation in return signal strength from either the UG2402 or UG2802 amp. I figured if everything is working fine now, if I were to introduce such a huge loss in to the mix, on devices that require that return communications, it would mess things up.hmmurdock wrote:No splitters anywhere.
I'm assuming a few things here.
1) The feed from the pole goes directly to his current distribution point (and current location of his 8300 amp)
2) Everything as it is, works without issue.
3) The two drops going from the original distribution point to the basement wiring closet are good quality.
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jziggity
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On the UG2802 product page, it states: "The EDA-UG2802 is an 8-port model and is used in applications where the cable signal has already been amplified, and additional ports are required to distribute the amplified cable signal. In cases where more than one amplifier is present, it is possible to overdrive the cable signal and cause additional problems. The EDA-UG2802 takes the guesswork out of this situation, as it provides the exact same signal level at the output that is provided at the input."barnabas1969 wrote:Now that I've read post #9, I get hmmurdock's idea. I misunderstood at first. However, I still disagree. It is never a good idea to connect the output of an amplifier to the input of another amplifier. Doing so adds more noise (lower SNR aka S/N) and a significantly higher possibility of amplifying the signal beyond the +/- 10dB (+/- 7dB) range that is acceptable.
This is what I'm looking for, except for that whole return signal loss thing. Is there something that works like the 2802 but DOESN'T have such a huge return loss?
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hmmurdock
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Agree and disagree.barnabas1969 wrote:Now that I've read post #9, I get hmmurdock's idea. I misunderstood at first. However, I still disagree. It is never a good idea to connect the output of an amplifier to the input of another amplifier. Doing so adds more noise (lower SNR aka S/N) and a significantly higher possibility of amplifying the signal beyond the +/- 10dB (+/- 7dB) range that is acceptable.
The OP is talking about adding a Unity Gain amp. By very definition, a Unity Gain amp isn't going to amplify the signal beyond what it already is. They basically act as lossless splitters, not true amplifiers. Whatever the signal level coming in is what you'll get coming out. If the 8300 isn't overdriving the signal now, adding a Unity gain amp before or after shouldn't change that.
But yes daisy chaining a bunch of amplifiers together is usually not a great idea.
Quality amplifiers (and the Electrolines are very high quality in my experience) don't introduce much noise, but they do amplify the existing noise.... at the same level they amplify the rest of the signal, so it shouldn't change the SNR much if at all.
But using splitters and amplifiers will always have trade offs. If you need two amps in two locations, then you're going to have to split the signal before it gets to the amps, or daisy chain them. If you split it, then you either started with a great signal and cut it in half (and any noise picked up along that signal path will have a higher SNR than if that same signal wasn't split) or you started with an overdriven signal and then split that. Neither one is ideal.
As you said originally, it's best to experiment and see what works best.
I was just trying to suggest a setup that would have as little impact on existing setup as possible, that didn't require adding any extra drops.
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hmmurdock
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If you have a look at my crude diagram above, if any of the devices connected to the UG Amp (lower part of the diagram) require a return path you might run into trouble, but from what it sounds like all of the things that I typically associate with that will be in your basement wiring closet, so it shouldn't be an issue.jziggity wrote:All of those assumptions are correct. The biggest concern I had was the degradation in return signal strength from either the UG2402 or UG2802 amp. I figured if everything is working fine now, if I were to introduce such a huge loss in to the mix, on devices that require that return communications, it would mess things up.
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jziggity
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Yes, I believe that is the case. I will have to double-check, but I believe all other devices that are connected elsewhere in the house would only be regular TV sets, and such direct coax connections are only there as a backup live TV viewing option should the HTCP + extender setup go down or run out of tuners.hmmurdock wrote: If you have a look at my crude diagram above, if any of the devices connected to the UG Amp (lower part of the diagram) require a return path you might run into trouble, but from what it sounds like all of the things that I typically associate with that will be in your basement wiring closet, so it shouldn't be an issue.
I suppose an even better option would be replace the 8300 with a similar device that has more outputs? I'm assuming something like that exists, and hopefully it's not an uber-expensive high-end commercial device that runs into the hundreds of dollars...?
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hmmurdock
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The only problem with that is you're going to need more than 2 runs to your wiring closet if you want to have your cable modem in the wiring closet downstairs without using splitters. (and if you're still going to be using splitters why fork out big bucks for the uber-amp?)jziggity wrote:I suppose an even better option would be replace the 8300 with a similar device that has more outputs? I'm assuming something like that exists, and hopefully it's not an uber-expensive high-end commercial device that runs into the hundreds of dollars...?
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jziggity
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Yes, I was thinking along the lines of replacing the 8300 with a 16 port version (I don't think Electroline makes one though), and I would just run separate coax feeds from the now increased number of output ports directly to the wiring closet. Or, perhaps TWC would either provide me with their own version of a 16 port amp/splitter, or make another drop for me that would not terminate just inside the basement wall, but would actually keep going to the wiring closet (all open ceiling in the basement, no problems there), and then TWC could also provide an amp/splitter at the closet?
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barnabas1969
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You're correct that a unity gain amplifier isn't going to contribute to over-driving the devices down-stream (unless the signal is already too high before the unity gain amp). However, a unity gain amplifier is not simply a lossless splitter (there is no such thing). It is indeed an amplifier, and as such, it will add some noise to the signal which will result in degraded SNR.hmmurdock wrote:The OP is talking about adding a Unity Gain amp. By very definition, a Unity Gain amp isn't going to amplify the signal beyond what it already is. They basically act as lossless splitters, not true amplifiers. Whatever the signal level coming in is what you'll get coming out. If the 8300 isn't overdriving the signal now, adding a Unity gain amp before or after shouldn't change that.
Why not just try splitting the signal instead of adding another amplifier?
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hmmurdock
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Splitting the signal is certainly something he could try. It's very possible it might work. Why might he not want to do that?barnabas1969 wrote:You're correct that a unity gain amplifier isn't going to contribute to over-driving the devices down-stream (unless the signal is already too high before the unity gain amp). However, a unity gain amplifier is not simply a lossless splitter (there is no such thing). It is indeed an amplifier, and as such, it will add some noise to the signal which will result in degraded SNR.
Why not just try splitting the signal instead of adding another amplifier?
Well, lets say he just uses an 8-way passive splitter to replace the 8 port drop amp that was in the original location. The passive splitter will attenuate the signal by ~11db (which is a lot) so any noise introduced to the signal after that split will have a much greater impact. The noise in either scenario will be the same, but the signal will be much weaker using a passive splitter. Same Noise + Weaker Signal = Worse SNR.
Yes the UG Amp can add noise of its own, but it is usually not a significant amount. No device is perfect (active or passive) but you can generally treat them as active splitters. If he has a passive 8-way splitter lying around, it may well be worth a shot to try that instead of buying a 2nd amp.
But if everything is working properly now, and he wants a minimum of headaches moving equipment to the wiring closet the UG amp is the "safest" way to go as the signal going to every drop should be at the same power it was before making any changes. When you add more devices (and more drops) to your system you're going to introduce more noise. That is unavoidable. Keeping your signal levels where they should be will minimize the impact of that noise. That's why I try to avoid passive splitters. (The only place I have a passive splitter is at my HTPC where I use a 2 way (-3.5db) passive splitter to drive both of my InfiniTV-4s and there is about 1" of cabling between the splitter and the devices, so there is a small signal loss and a small distance to introduce noise)