NBC blocks recordings again

[adam1991]

Can the cable company actually explain, as did erkotz, why *their* box would record it while such recording is forbidden otherwise?

That still sounds skanky to me, and I guarantee TWC would not have had a "straight answer" for that at all.

[richard1980]

This has been answered multiple times. The CableLabs specification defines hosts as "commercially available consumer receivers and set-top terminals" (as defined in chapter 1 of "CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification"...it should be noted that "Host" is defined in multiple CableLabs specifications, with slightly different wording in some specifications. However, all of the definitions contain the same core concept: A host is something that can be purchased at retail by a regular consumer.) Cable boxes do not fit into this definition because they are not commercially available to consumers. Therefore, none of the copy protection rules apply to cable boxes. The copy protection rules only apply to devices that are commercially available to consumers.

[adam1991]

Richard, I understand that. We all do at this point.

Please go back to *my* point on this: TWC would NOT have given ANY sort of "straight answer" to any caller on why 7MC is forbidden to record a show while TWC boxes happily record it.

That was my entire point here. Please go back and read immediately prior posts. I was disputing that the cableco would have given a "straight answer" to that very reasonable question.

[richard1980]

You must be assuming that someone at TWC actually knows the answer.

[adam1991]

I'm only responding directly to what foxwood said:

None of us like dealing with the support people at the cable company, but I know that when I do, I prefer to get a straight answer rather than the run-around, even when the answer is No.

We'd all prefer to get a straight answer, but in this case I highly doubt TWC would have one to offer. It would take coming to a place like this and asking someone like erkotz.

[prijo]

And in this case, what exactly could TWC have done for you? They did exactly what you paid them to do, delivering the signal from the TV station.

You can't expect TWC to troubleshoot Windows Media Center. I don't want to pay higher cable-card fees to pay for my cable company supporting end-user questions about problems with WMC.

None of us like dealing with the support people at the cable company, but I know that when I do, I prefer to get a straight answer rather than the run-around, even when the answer is No.

I was immediately dismissed by time warner. First they told me that I need to complain to NBC. Then they told me that it was cetons fault and I should complain to them. In neither case did time warner take the the time to investigate, isolate or help to solve the problem IN THE SLIGHTEST WAY. Point the finger at somebody else and let the customer suffer. What leverage do I have with NBC? What leverage does time warner have with NBC? (HINT: I am only one small voice, twc probably has 750,000 subscribers in the greater Columbus area) Thank goodness for this forum and the level of support that ceton provides. Many have seen my setup, and everyone has asked if I can set one up for them. After this experience, I will give a 10 to ceton and recommend them 100%, time warner has been eliminated from the conversation.

Sure, this time it wasn't twc's fault, but for ceton, twc customers would still be urinating up wind.

[foxwood]

I am only one small voice, twc probably has 750,000 subscribers in the greater Columbus area)

Of whom maybe a dozen use CableCards and WMC.

Even if it was 100 or 1,000, it's still not TWC's responsibility to fix WMC issues. Were TiVo users affected by this?

I posted a link to the Engineering Department of the station affected shortly before we got word that the issue had been resolved. It took less that two minutes to find that link on the stations website when I looked for it. At the time my suggestion was that users experiencing the problem should get the stations engineers on TWC's case, because when we were told that OTA recordings weren't effected, TWC seemed the obvious culprits. But if people had alerted the stations engineers when the problem first occurred, instead of contacting TWC, the issue might have been fixed sooner.

Thank goodness for this forum and the level of support that ceton provides. Many have seen my setup, and everyone has asked if I can set one up for them. After this experience, I will give a 10 to ceton and recommend them 100%, time warner has been eliminated from the conversation.

Sure, this time it wasn't twc's fault, but for ceton, twc customers would still be urinating up wind.

I'm not a TWC customer, I've got Verizon FiOS, and their customer service lines are infamous for ineptitude, so maybe I just have lower expectations than you do. But on the rare occasions when I've wandered into their online support forums, I've been pleasantly surprised to see interventions by knowledgeable and interested Verizon staff, acting in an unofficial capacity.

[foxwood]

Richard, I understand that. We all do at this point.

Please go back to *my* point on this: TWC would NOT have given ANY sort of "straight answer" to any caller on why 7MC is forbidden to record a show while TWC boxes happily record it.

That was my entire point here. Please go back and read immediately prior posts. I was disputing that the cableco would have given a "straight answer" to that very reasonable question.

Hold on, you expect TWC to give you a straight answer about the behavior of 7MC, when we can't even get those answers from Microsoft?

TWC gave a straight answer, according to prijo:

sorry, we cannot help you with your recording problems since you are not using a DVR supplied from time warner cable.

[prijo]

Whatever foxwood , I guess it is just going to take a few more evolutionary cycles till my horse grows as tall as yours. I still believe, after all your spin that twc could/should have taken an interest in what myself and others have reported instead of dismissing us so quickly. In the end, it is my money I am sending to twc, not yours. You are allowed your opinion, likewise am I, no amount of quoting on you part will dissuade me from mine.

[lammers42]

I'm on Insight as they are transitioning to TWC system. I tried to explain to the CSR over the phone that the CGMS flag was being set and if they could talk to NBC about fixing the broadcast flag or if TWC could set up the appropriate CCI flag to overide the CGMS flag for every channel in case something like this happens (much like they do on WOW's system). They were convinced that this was an isolated event and it was my cablecard failing. I said I'm 99% positive that wasn't the issue but if that is what it took to get a tech out to my house, so be it. That way I could show them this issue and educate them on the different broadcast flags so they could bring it back to their supervisors to implement a better fix in the system. Keep in mind the issue is fixed now but nothing else is stopping NBC or other broadcasters from upgrading equipment/software in the future and having this type of issue again. Isn't the better or more long term fix to implement the CCI copy freely or copy once so the CGMS copynever flag will be ignored?

[foxwood]

if they could talk to NBC about fixing the broadcast flag

This wasn't an NBC issue, it was a WCMH issue. That's an important distinction that people seem to be avoiding. Contacting 30 Rockefeller Plaza would have done as much good as contacting TWC, because neither NBC nor TWC caused this problem or could do anything to fix it.

WCMH provide a contact form for their engineering department right there on their website. Even if it had been a TWC problem, contacting the WCMH engineering team would have been the right place to start, if only because the kind of people who work in that kind of job tend to be passionate about it, and understand the kind of problems that arise. That's part of the reason that they tend to be paid a bit more than TWC Call Center Reps.

[lammers42]

What is your problem man? Yeah I realize it was the local NBC affiliate that needed to be contacted. I'm sorry I didn't differentiate between local affiliate NBC and parent company NBC. However, I was more specifically talking about things TWC/Insight could do to fix the problem permanently regardless of whether WCMH or any other broadcaster attaches a CGMS copynever flag onto the broadcast.

[erkotz]

I'm on Insight as they are transitioning to TWC system. I tried to explain to the CSR over the phone that the CGMS flag was being set and if they could talk to NBC about fixing the broadcast flag or if TWC could set up the appropriate CCI flag to overide the CGMS flag for every channel in case something like this happens (much like they do on WOW's system). They were convinced that this was an isolated event and it was my cablecard failing. I said I'm 99% positive that wasn't the issue but if that is what it took to get a tech out to my house, so be it. That way I could show them this issue and educate them on the different broadcast flags so they could bring it back to their supervisors to implement a better fix in the system. Keep in mind the issue is fixed now but nothing else is stopping NBC or other broadcasters from upgrading equipment/software in the future and having this type of issue again. Isn't the better or more long term fix to implement the CCI copy freely or copy once so the CGMS copynever flag will be ignored?

This is not the Broadcast Flag. That is another name for the Redistribution Control flag. This was CGMS-A

[lammers42]

This is not the Broadcast Flag. That is another name for the Redistribution Control flag. This was CGMS-A

It showed up on the HDhomerun Prime system as CGMS protection: protected copynever. I'm sorry I shortened it to CGMS copynever. Are you trying to say that if TWC would implement the proper CCI protection it wouldn't override any CGMS-A flag/bit/signal/whatever you want to call it? WOW does this and it works plain and simple. Everything I've ever read and saw in practice shows CCI will override CGMS-A.

[richard1980]

You referred to it as broadcast flag, which is very different from CGMS:

I tried to explain to the CSR over the phone that the CGMS flag was being set and if they could talk to NBC about fixing the broadcast flag

That way I could show them this issue and educate them on the different broadcast flags

[erkotz]

This is not the Broadcast Flag. That is another name for the Redistribution Control flag. This was CGMS-A

It showed up on the HDhomerun Prime system as CGMS protection: protected copynever. I'm sorry I shortened it to CGMS copynever. Are you trying to say that if TWC would implement the proper CCI protection it wouldn't override any CGMS-A flag/bit/signal/whatever you want to call it? WOW does this and it works plain and simple. Everything I've ever read and saw in practice shows CCI will override CGMS-A.

CCI does override CGMS-A (and RC) - my statement was because you referred to CGMS-A as the broadcast flag, which was incorrect.

[barnabas1969]

The poor horse. It's almost dead.

[prijo]

The poor horse. It's almost dead.

nah, foxwood is still riding high on it

[lammers42]

CCI does override CGMS-A (and RC) - my statement was because you referred to CGMS-A as the broadcast flag, which was incorrect.

Just so I know . . . in the future, what should I call the below CGMS-A "indicators" that are "not flags"?

00 CopyFreely
01 CopyNoMore
10 CopyOnce
11 CopyNever

[richard1980]

I think the problem is you aren't realizing that "broadcast flag" is a specific kind of flag, as is CGMS-A. They are both flags, but they aren't the same flag. Read the two links I provided in post 115.