NBC blocks recordings again

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erkotz

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#81

Post by erkotz » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:50 am

bradt5085 wrote:I'm having this issue too. Columbus Oh, TWC. Ceton infiniTV.

Filed a complaint with the FCC yesterday... we'll see where THAT goes...
In my opinion that was not the right course of action for three reasons:
#1. CGMS is typically from the station itself (I have never heard of an operator modifying it, though it's theoretically possible) so if one was going to file a complaint for this issue, it would typically need to be about the station and not the cable operator. Additionally customers on another operator reported the same issue.
#2. FCC complaints are typically last resorts. It is very rare for me to refer a customer to the FCC complaint process (I would say I only do it about once every other month). In almost all cases, the issue can be resolved
#3. Station engineers are typically very willing to assist. I typically use no special connections here - in this case, I called the station's main # and the switchboard got me to engineering.

adam1991 wrote:Questions remain:
* what did Ceton and WCMH engineers have to do to resolve this?
The flag getting enabled was an unintended side-effect of a software upgrade the station did to a piece of processing equipment. Once we explained the issue to the engineer (who indicated he had heard about the issue from a customer earlier today, but whoever spoke with him used incorrect terminology, which I think left him unsure what the issue was). Once the cause was identified, the processor was re-configured to set the CGMS to Copy Freely
adam1991 wrote: * how could the TW boxes possibly record this, when the industry standard technology does what it's told to do and rejects it?
TWC boxes (like most operator-supplied boxes) are not CableLabs certified. This means they do not need to adhere the requirements that retail devices do. For instance, the ATX UCrypt (powered by Ceton technology) is not CableLabs certified, as it is not a retail device (it is only sold to cable operators)
adam1991 wrote: * can we find any AT&T U-Verse customers in the area who can speak to their experience with this?
Most likely the AT&T STBs ignored the CGMS flag.

Also props to the engineers at WCMH, as they were very willing to engage and resolve the issue quickly once we brought it to their attention.
Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation

dudesky71

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#82

Post by dudesky71 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:36 am

I can confirm NBC is now recordable! Thank you to all that made this happen!

Sturmie

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#83

Post by Sturmie » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:27 pm

Thanks Eric, for helping to resolve this and the great explanation above. Re-affirms why I have two InfiniTV 4 tuner cards from Ceton :).

Btw, Today Show recorded this morning for the first time since Monday...all good here.

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makryger

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#84

Post by makryger » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:46 pm

And plus they renewed revolution for another season! Hooray NBC!
My Channel Logos XL: Get your Guide looking good! ~~~~ TunerSalad: Increase the 4-tuner limit in 7MC

adam1991

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#85

Post by adam1991 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:40 pm

erkotz: thanks for the explanation.

One more thing: if this came from the local station, then why was I able to record freely the same shows that came across WOW cable and into my InfiniTV setup? I know you've never heard of a cable operator changing it, but can the cable provider change this flag if it's present? SHOULD the cable provider be changing this flag at all? (If not, then everyone--SHHHHHH!)

Color me confused.

erkotz

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#86

Post by erkotz » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:44 pm

adam1991 wrote:erkotz: thanks for the explanation.

One more thing: if this came from the local station, then why was I able to record freely the same shows that came across WOW cable and into my InfiniTV setup? I know you've never heard of a cable operator changing it, but can the cable provider change this flag if it's present? SHOULD the cable provider be changing this flag at all? (If not, then everyone--SHHHHHH!)

Color me confused.
I've been told (but have not confirmed) that WOW sends CCI 0x00 (Copy Freely) for all channels, including ClearQAM. If this is true, that would explain why. CCI trumps all - if a channel is flagged as CGMS-A Copy Never, but is CCI Copy Freely, it is treated as Copy Freely.
Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation

adam1991

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#87

Post by adam1991 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:46 pm

Still a bit confused. From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A
Implementation of CGMS-A is required for certain applications by DVD CCA license. D-VHS and some DVD recorders comply with CGMS-A signal on analog inputs. The technology requires minimal signal processing.

Where the source signal is analogue (e.g. VHS, analogue broadcast), the CGMS-A signalling may be present in that source.

Where the source signal is digital (e.g. DVD, digital broadcast), then the Copy Control Information (CCI) is carried in metadata in the digital transport or program stream, and a compliant hardware device (e.g. a DVD player) will read that data, and encode it into the analogue video signal generated within the device itself.
OK, so CGMS-A is for analog signals. CCI is independent of that. How is it that CGMS-A is carrying through the entire InfiniTV/7MC digital setup? At what point is anything analog being read from within the digital stream?

Also, regarding CCI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Control_Information
0x03 - Copy Never - the content can be recorded and viewed for 90 minutes after transmission, and is not transferable.
So according to this, 7MC should be able to record the stream. It should never say "I can't record it at all." Right?

prijo

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#88

Post by prijo » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:47 am

adam1991 wrote:So according to this, 7MC should be able to record the stream. It should never say "I can't record it at all." Right?
My bet, ceton passes along to the higher application layer the flags it receives, wmc is misinterpretting the flags and erroneously blocking the recording.

erkotz

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#89

Post by erkotz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:28 am

adam1991 wrote:Still a bit confused. From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A
Implementation of CGMS-A is required for certain applications by DVD CCA license. D-VHS and some DVD recorders comply with CGMS-A signal on analog inputs. The technology requires minimal signal processing.

Where the source signal is analogue (e.g. VHS, analogue broadcast), the CGMS-A signalling may be present in that source.

Where the source signal is digital (e.g. DVD, digital broadcast), then the Copy Control Information (CCI) is carried in metadata in the digital transport or program stream, and a compliant hardware device (e.g. a DVD player) will read that data, and encode it into the analogue video signal generated within the device itself.
OK, so CGMS-A is for analog signals. CCI is independent of that. How is it that CGMS-A is carrying through the entire InfiniTV/7MC digital setup? At what point is anything analog being read from within the digital stream?

Also, regarding CCI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Control_Information
0x03 - Copy Never - the content can be recorded and viewed for 90 minutes after transmission, and is not transferable.
So according to this, 7MC should be able to record the stream. It should never say "I can't record it at all." Right?
You're not missing anything...it's bone-headed. The analog CGMS-A signal is normally encoded in Line 21, much like closed-captioning. Well, there are provisions to allow VBI data, like the CC and CGMS-A signal to be encoded in a digital signal (which has no VBI). OCURs are required to honor these flags.

prijo wrote:
adam1991 wrote:So according to this, 7MC should be able to record the stream. It should never say "I can't record it at all." Right?
My bet, ceton passes along to the higher application layer the flags it receives, wmc is misinterpretting the flags and erroneously blocking the recording.
We are required to encrypt content in the presence of this signal (and no CCI) by the OCUR spec. It is up to the DRIR (Media Center) to do whatever it wants to with it (as long as it's permissible by the DRM in use). I would agree that WMC is not handling this flag in an optimal way.
Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation

richard1980

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#90

Post by richard1980 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:56 am

adam1991 wrote:Also, regarding CCI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Control_Information
0x03 - Copy Never - the content can be recorded and viewed for 90 minutes after transmission, and is not transferable.
So according to this, 7MC should be able to record the stream. It should never say "I can't record it at all." Right?
The wording on Wikipedia is a bit misleading. The FCC rule actually requires the content be encoded in such a way that the viewer is able to pause it for up to 90 minutes from the time of initial transmission. The ability to pause live TV requires "recording" the live stream to a buffer.

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#91

Post by flhrci » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:43 pm

So in case any one hasn't heard yet, Ceton was able to get this resolved with WCMH Friday evening.

"Hi David,

We have been in contact with WCMH and they responded to us last night that they had found and resolved the problem. We are glad to hear that everything is working again for you. If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank you,
Ceton Support"

Was working yesterday morning again. Apparently an engineer installed a software update on a machine and it tripped the DO NOT RECORD flag unintentionally.

Thanks Ceton!

David

prijo

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#92

Post by prijo » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:29 pm

flhrci wrote:So in case any one hasn't heard yet, Ceton was able to get this resolved with WCMH Friday evening.

"Hi David,

We have been in contact with WCMH and they responded to us last night that they had found and resolved the problem. We are glad to hear that everything is working again for you. If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank you,
Ceton Support"

Was working yesterday morning again. Apparently an engineer installed a software update on a machine and it tripped the DO NOT RECORD flag unintentionally.

Thanks Ceton!

David
Yes, compare and contrast that response to the one I received in writing from twc: sorry, we cannot help you with your recording problems since you are not using a DVR supplied from time warner cable.

30 years I have been with that company....

adam1991

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#93

Post by adam1991 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:11 pm

I was with TWC against my wishes, right up until the time Americast came into play to compete. (I remember watching AT&T run cable behind my house in the worst winter weather we'd had in 20 years. The boom times were upon us, and they weren't about to let moss grow under their feet.)

TWC had a very bad attitude towards customers and technology, even given their being the first to introduce broadband over cable in 1997. Yep, I can't believe I've been off dialup since September 1997.

Anyway, TWC required converter boxes at every TV for no reason other than they could. Evil, and costly. Then came Americast, who didn't. You could get the non-premiums in the clear, straight out of the wall. And whaddya know--TWC discovered they had competition, and responded to it. Suddenly their CSRs became friendly, they offered the non-premiums in the clear, they were striking pricing deals, etc. Sorry, TWC. Too little, too late.

Then AT&T decided to get out of the business and sold their infrastructure and customer base to tiny Wide Open West out of Denver. Life got better. Things evolved to the current WOW Cable and its current owners, who by and large have kept on track with being the company you want to do business with.

For example: when WOW switched to all-digital, they took great pains to (a) keep the same in-the-clear channels they've always had, and (b) keep those channels on the same channel numbers for digital TVs. To this day, if you bring a TV home from the store and plug it into the wall and tell it to scan for digital cable channels, you get the *same* experience that you got 15 years ago when you had a new TV scan for analog channels. It picks up the same (virtual) channel numbers and just works. Grandma couldn't be happier.

TWC? Here's what they have to say:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-2 ... users.html

Time Warner Cable to Squeeze More Profit From Fewer Users

Back to the topic: which company do you think a 7MC user will find it easier and cheaper to work with when things like the copy flag come up?

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#94

Post by barnabas1969 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:57 pm

Adam,

The trend in business toward fewer customers and more profit has been going on for a long time. When a business can figure out which customers are not making them much of a profit, drive them away, and charge higher prices to the customers who remain, they'll jump on it.

In banking, this is called "relationship pricing". Basically, it's designed to drive away the customers who don't keep much money in the bank by charging them higher fees, but retain the customers who have big balances (loans and/or savings). Then, once all the poor customers are gone (the ones who actually COST them money to service), they start ratcheting up the fees on the remaining customers, and paying lower interest rates.

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#95

Post by foxwood » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:32 pm

prijo wrote:compare and contrast that response to the one I received in writing from twc: sorry, we cannot help you with your recording problems since you are not using a DVR supplied from time warner cable.
While it pains me to have to take any cable-co's side, and it looked to me like they were probably at fault based on the information available, they were in the clear in this case, and that response isn't unreasonable.

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#96

Post by Hifialan » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:22 pm

I don't know about that, I Foxwood. I pay to get TWC cable service to my house and I rent 2 cable cards, plus I buy Internet from them. They rent me the cable cards knowing I don't use their DVR, and I actually like TWC. But, this problem affected a good customer who couldn't get the service I pay them for. They should be more helpful because they make recurring money from me, while Ceton and SiliconDust made their money. So, I feel TWC should be more helpful than Ceton.

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#97

Post by Sturmie » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:40 pm

Can anyone confirm what Eric said about WOW setting all channels to "Copy Freely"? That might be a reason for me to switch over since I called WOW the other day and they're relatively the same price for what I'm getting right now from Insight.

adam1991

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#98

Post by adam1991 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:56 pm

barnabas1969 wrote:Adam,

The trend in business toward fewer customers and more profit has been going on for a long time. When a business can figure out which customers are not making them much of a profit, drive them away, and charge higher prices to the customers who remain, they'll jump on it.
Yes, and Best Buy was SO good at it when they tried that recently <snort>.

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#99

Post by adam1991 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:00 pm

Sturmie wrote:Can anyone confirm what Eric said about WOW setting all channels to "Copy Freely"? That might be a reason for me to switch over since I called WOW the other day and they're relatively the same price for what I'm getting right now from Insight.
Price shouldn't be the only determining factor. Certainly the "copy freely" thing is significant, but there's more to it than that--in this case, the "more" being that TWC are a bunch of criminals.

Anyway, I can tell you that other than three or so isolated programs over the last two years, I've never seen anything on WOW that isn't "copy freely". For example, I'm sitting here watching Vacation that I recorded from Encore, and it's not copy protected at all.

Disclosure: I do not do PPV, nor do I have any premium channels beyond the Starz/Encore stuff that comes with the higher end digital tier.

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#100

Post by foxwood » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:00 pm

And in this case, what exactly could TWC have done for you? They did exactly what you paid them to do, delivering the signal from the TV station.

You can't expect TWC to troubleshoot Windows Media Center. I don't want to pay higher cable-card fees to pay for my cable company supporting end-user questions about problems with WMC.

None of us like dealing with the support people at the cable company, but I know that when I do, I prefer to get a straight answer rather than the run-around, even when the answer is No.

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